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Peter Galea

Is the ground game a myth?
« on: July 23, 2006, 11:03:14 AM »
Watching the Open, I think so. Everyone is hoisting it way up in the air, even with the right angles and at close range. Is bouncing the ball in just for amateurs?
"chief sherpa"

Brian Phillips

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 11:06:36 AM »
Pete,

Have you been watching a different Open?  Did you see the first three days...Tiger was putting and chipping from everywhere...

If you mean approaches then of course they are going to be hitting it as high as they can to get the ball to stop on these greens and there has been no wind this week so it has been possible..
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 11:07:35 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Peter Galea

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 11:09:54 AM »
Brian, no, I didn't see the first 3 days. Guess I missed all the good stuff.
"chief sherpa"

RJ_Daley

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 11:20:31 AM »
Well, with my game I am certainly not the fellow to comment on the wisdom of going high and being able to stop it on these firm links greens rather than those bounding along the ground "old time Scottish golf".  But, where these fellows strike it so well that they can hit those high and spinning shots more predictably than we mortals, that seems to often be their first decision.  Yet, windy conditions and firm-hard ground did allow many players to choose the ground as Brian notes above.  I still think back to 2000 when Tiger put on a clinic for using the ground at TOC.  The ground game is not a myth, it is a choice, perhaps not taken as often by the highest level pros.  Or, maybe they are grooved into thinking only one way.  And, Tiger is not so grooved that he won't just pick that route when it is the right time and place.
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Eric Franzen

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 11:21:37 AM »
It is probably just my imagination, but I think the ground game was used in a bit wider extent at last years Open at The Old Course. If that should be true then it is probably due  to the absent wind and maybe, maybe that the green sites at TOC is a bit more encouraging to those kind of shots. But I am on thin ice here since I haven't played Hoylake.



Craig Sweet

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 02:18:07 PM »
Personally, I think these guys are smart enough to play whatever game the course offers up...in this case the ground game was not as necessary. Were they not hand watering the greens every night? Didn't more than one golfer say the greens were pretty receptive to a high flying iron? If so, why leave yourself open to the quirky bounce?

I noticed that Tiger, due to the length of several of his 2nd shots, played a lower, more penetrating iron that bounded up onto to the green...it would appear that his was the best strategy for this course, this week.

Mark_Fine

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 02:24:55 PM »
Pete,
This whole tournament was ALL ABOUT THE GROUND GAME.  Who cares if some guys hit it higher than others.  The key was trying to determine and to control what happened to your golf ball after it landed back on the ground.  

Padraig Dooley

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2006, 02:36:41 PM »
The ball is round. As long as it stays round the ground game will be around.
There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Peter Galea

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 03:33:04 PM »
I guess we have different ideas of what the ground game is. I saw many shots thrown high in the air then bounding over the greens, maybe it was just the spots they hit that weren't receptive. Tiger said it was "one of the fastest courses they've played." Hitting it high into firm greens, playing away from pins, and flying it into bunkers is less about the ground to me than others who have commented. I may not be able to do it, but I know it when I see it.
"chief sherpa"

JWL

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 04:05:04 PM »
The ground game at this level of play consist of predicting how much a shot will release, and hitting an approach shot to a distance that will allow the release of the ball to end up pin high.   That takes a lot guesswork.   However, the ground is so hard that any and all shots are going to release, so more than others.   The pro will usually hit his approach shot the maximum distance in the air that will stop pin high.  If the shot requires landing short of the green, then the pro will often take into account the levelness of where the ball will land to be able to eliminate as many weird "bounces" as possible.   The ground game at Hoylake is strictly dictated by the firmness of the ground.   Some areas are softer and some firmer.   The golfer that can sort that out best will probably win.    Golf is more than ball striking and making putts.    There is a whole lot of "figuring" that determines one's success.

ed_getka

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 05:05:57 PM »
Pete,
    You should have seen Furyk's putt out of a bunker. Pure imagination. That one shot was worth watching the Open for.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Craig Sweet

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2006, 05:08:31 PM »
The NY Times said Woods averaged 291 off the tee mostly hitting low 2 irons that ran along the fairway grass...

Tom_Doak

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 10:19:05 PM »
Was Tiger really averaging 291 yards and keeping it short of the fairway bunkers??  Or was that average based on two measured holes?

The part of Tiger's strategy that has still not been talked about is this ... his strategy effectively shortened the course.  He was playing to targets 210-230 yards off the tee and still getting out to 270 or whatever, instead of flying it 270 and watching it bounce further out of play.  And then, instead of flying his second shot 200 and trying to make it stop, he'd just hit the second shot 170 and let it trundle on.  He just got the ball moving in the right direction with a more manageable club, the same way Peter Oosterhuis described to me years ago how he played links golf.

To me that is certainly the ground game ... using the hardness of the ground to your advantage instead of fighting it.

If you are looking for somebody to hit it along the ground from 100-150 yards out, hell, I don't think Harry Vardon did that when he was playing for money.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 10:21:02 PM by Tom_Doak »

Tom_Doak

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 10:34:16 PM »
Shivas:  Exactly.  I have seen the same phenomenon at The Masters in the years when it's really wet -- only a handful of players understand how they ought to adjust their mechanics in order not to suck balls back off the front of the greens, while the rest just complain about the conditions and seem to think the old guys got a lucky break!

Tiger is really more of an engineer than anybody I've seen play golf in this age.  He's not just relying on feel and touch like Seve or Crenshaw ... it's that he understands the mechanics of his swing and ball trajectory and the contours of the ground, and he is working out the best solution to the equation.  Which is something like what I do for a living.  He'd probably make a great golf course architect!

TEPaul

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 10:49:42 PM »
PeteG;

If you didn't recognize the "ground game" at Hoylake, then all I can say is we are ships passing in the night.  ;)

ForkaB

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2006, 12:46:56 AM »
As I once said, all golf is "target golf"--it's just the target which changes.

One of the reasons that Tiger could use the strategy he did is that the approaches to the greens at Hoylake are relatively flat and hazard free.  It's harder to execute that strategy when there are 2-5 foot high mounds in the 5-20 yard area in front of the greens, as there are on some other links courses.  Harder, but not impossible--viz. Tiger at his two other open wins over the Old Course.

James Bennett

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2006, 01:11:41 AM »
Rich

further to your point about St Andrews accentuating the 'skill and judgement' element associated with executing a ground game..

Tom Doak mentioned that when it rains at Augusta the experienced, quality pros know what to do to get near the hole, and not spin back off the greens.  Given your points about St Andrews, I know begin to understand why the Old Course Championship leader board in 2005 had so many great past players on it (Norman etc) as well as the current great player Tiger Woods.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

TEPaul

Re:Is the ground game a myth?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2006, 07:45:27 AM »
"TEP:  what Pete's saying is that the pros weren't playing a "flat" ground game.  BEcause there was little wind, they were essentially playing an aerial, target game to spots with less club and gauging roll out.  Not to speak for him, but I think he's saying a high aerial + roll game is not a ground game."

Shivas and TomD:

The type of course management Woods put on Hoylake all week (I think I saw the entire Open on TV) was basically the "ground game" to me. Forget about whatever shot trajectory he may've put on any shot at any time (which most certainly did vary tremendously).

Perhaps some on here think the "ground game" is basically hitting most all shots very low and allowing the ball to run a good deal of the way on the ground.

That certainly can be one type of ground game shot selection but there are many more variations of it and Woods appeared to basically use them all at The Open.

There used to be an old saying in auto racing that the driver needed to drive "by the seat of his pants". That essentially meant the driver needed to "feel" or "sense" the limit of adhesion of his tires on the road.

What Woods and Williams appeared to do at Hoylake on all their shots is essentially to "feel" the ground, the shape and consistency of it at particular places on Hoylake with whatever type of shot, trajectory or distance selection they made. Some shots he hoisted high and some he kept low but his entire course management and execution seemed to be to "feel" the ground all the way around whether that was on an approach to a green or on a green surface. They were basically sensing what the ground would do with the golf ball once it landed at any particular place. This to me is the real "ground game" and probably real links shot-making and pretty much the opposite of the classic American aerial game of hitting an exact distance and spot and having the ball stop dead or even suck back.

And to "sense" the ground as Woods did at Hoylake and to "feel" (in the seat of his pants) what the ground would do with both bounce and roll on any particular shot he also had to completely analyze the architecture and inherent strategies of the golf course, particularly cants of the ground and bunker placement.

To me this was ground game course management and strategizing as good as it can be done.

Just like at St Andrews where he won Woods virtually never used driver choosing instead to just not challenge the fairway bunkering on the course and like at St Andrews it seemed like he pretty much avoided them all (fairway bunkering) throughout the tournament. This was the exact opposite over-all strategy and course management plan from John Daly at TOC when he chose to both challenge and carry most all the fairway bunkering of TOC on a somewhat shorter set-up.

One can certainly say that Woods "outthought" the inherent architectural risks of the tee shots of Hoylake by essentially just choosing not to challenge them.

But what is most ironic of all is that he completely outthought all those idiots who once intended to reign in his extreme driver power by making courses longer and putting the inherent "risks" of courses (particularly FAIRWAY bunkers) consequently farther out there to snare his excessive driver power. Basically all tournament long he simply chose to come up short of those inherent fairway "risks". What "Tiger proofers" probably never much considered about him is on courses like that it's not so much a matter of him choosing to hit something very long off most any tees. I guess basically they just never fully realized or appreciated that he doesn't need to do that as his approach shots from even the 230-250 range can be a mid iron either kept down or lofted a mile in the air, if he so chooses.

As usual, Woods showed he is not just the incredibly talented shot executor of whatever type of shot he needs but he is also clearly the best "strategist" and "tactician" of figuring out precisely HOW HE needs to play any golf course best.

The fact that Woods basically never used a driver at Hoylake when apparently everyone else did far more should even teach his fellow competitors a lesson on not just great golf but also great strategizing.

At the final interview and the award ceremony he simply mentioned that he took what the course gave him, particularly off the tees. Clearly too many of the rest tried to force their games and shot selections on the golf course and its inherent "risk" areas.

I think Woods and Williams "felt" the course (the ground and the course's bunker placments) just like the old fashioned race driver "felt" the limit of adhesion of his tires on the road.

The only difference in that analogy to what Woods just did is the old fashioned race driver who did that best went the farthest quickest, while Woods this week essentially slowed down in "feeling" the course and the ground, and let the others make more little wrecks in and around the course's "risk' areas compared to him.  ;)

Tiger Woods led the tournament in fairways hit (regardless of how far out ;) on a type of golf course where that was the essential called for strategy), and he won again.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2006, 08:01:07 AM by TEPaul »

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