French vs German architecture..

[John Kavanaugh]

My 11 yr old (who is quarter German and quarter French) was discussing with me the attributes of each culture and who is better.  Obviously Germans are better fighters and French better lovers...ie: beer and wine..cars and food, etc, etc...Then he said the French had better architecture than Germany.  Was he right...

[Bill_McBride]

Compare the monstrosity outside the Louvre with the cathedral at Cologne.  Grossly overexaggerated, but there's a start.

Or were you thinking golf architecture?

[John Kavanaugh]

I think the architecture of a culture is reflected in all aspects of the art.  So either buildings or golf courses would answer my sons questions.

[Jim_Kennedy]

French architecture is about art and building monuments to the glory of France, whereas German architecture had a traditon of building conservatively.


Wonder if their courses reflect this?

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

Here is a link to German architecture: http://germany.archiseek.com/ When I look at the buildings conservative doesn't come to mind...

The same link for France: http://france.archiseek.com/

[Ulrich Mayring]

As a German I am naturally qualified to let this particular hammer fall ;-)

From the early medieval times up to perhaps the 19th century, with a little pause during the Renaissance, French architecture ruled the world. The cathedral is French, period. Cologne is actually the French name (also used in English) of the city of Köln, which was French for a long time and certainly influenced from there. Bernard of Clairvaux brought cloister architecture to Germany. Most of the Prussian architecture is a Louis XIV knockoff.

In modern times, however, this has switched. Anything the French built from the 20th century onwards is atrocious. They are building high-rise tourist traps in naturally sensitive areas like the uncomparable Alps mountains. And if you've ever seen the Banlieus, well, don't go there. Horrible. At the same time the Germans, starting with the Bauhaus school, did some nice, laid-back work. We are protecting our medieval heritage, while in France they just let it rot.

Ok, about Golf architecture... France is better, but it's not Scotland. The style is fairly similar - I call it continental European style. Not counting the occasional Dye and RTJ layout in France.

Ulrich

[paul cowley]

John...what historical period do you think your son is impressed with or referring to?
Sean speaks of things more modern, but for me and about what I like....it would probably be French over German in the 1400 thru 1800's.

[T_MacWood]

Ulrich
I don't know much about home-grown French or German golf architecture but the only 'name' old time GCAs I've heard of are German (both of them) - Karl Hoffman and Bernard von Limburger. I don't know of any French equivalent to them. What's your opinion of Hoffman or von Limburger?

[John Kavanaugh]

John...what historical period do you think your son is impressed with or referring to?
Sean speaks of things more modern, but for me and about what I like....it would probably be French over German in the 1400 thru 1800's.

Paul,

I and my son would agree...After I read those fantastic posts we went through the sites I linked for both countries and found nothing modern that impressed our eye at all...Funny how IM Pei has worked in both countries http://www.archiseek.com/architects/p/pei_im.html to little avail even though I did like the pyramid until Dan Brown made it a focal point of his book.  I do without question prefer modern golf architects to structural ones...but maybe it has more to do with modern craftsmen and unions than creativity.

Something really bad..Irish modern.. http://www.irish-architecture.com/

Something worse...England http://england.archiseek.com/london/city/swiss_re.html

Next time any of us meet a modern golf course architect that we think is doing poor work...just think of the above...it could be worse.

[John Kavanaugh]

JakaB

Jeepers!  The Gerkin is an outstanding example of modern architecture.  You must remember that the interior of these buildings is just as important if not more important than the exterior.  Additionally, the purpose of the building must be taken into account.  

Polluting a skyline of a wonderful city so some grunt can have more open space above his cubical is both selfish and arrogant.  

[Ulrich Mayring]

What's your opinion of Hoffman or von Limburger?

I never heard of Hoffman, do you know any courses he did? Von Limburger designed a couple of nice parkland tracks, but I wouldn't say he revolutionized the field. Bernhard Langer did some work, too, although I don't know who he collaberated with.

Ulrich

[paul cowley]

John...I know what one half of your sons genetics are... but, assuming the other fifty percent are intact. ...well maybe you might want explore more of Ireland, which has little great architecture in the past 300 years or so that wasn't borrowed from the east, but does have good cottage and city stuff that might even be better than the 'great' stuff from elsewhere]...[and not bad golf either].

[T_MacWood]

Ulrich
Hoffman designed Mittelrheinischer (w/Tom Simpson), Cologne-Refrath and Krefeld. Near the end of his career he took von Limburger under his wing.

Karl Hoffman was an architect by training...apropos to this thread. He designed the impressive clubhouse at the Berlin-Wansee club. Based on that building his designs look like they were influenced by Frank L Wright and the Prairie School.

[Ulrich Mayring]

I've played Mittelrheinischer Golf Club (Bad Ems) once, in fact, I'm right now sitting maybe 20 minutes from it. It's a good parkland layout, until today I would have said Limburger style. Now I have to call Limmy's tracks Hoffmann style, I guess

Yes, he was nick-named Limmy or, in more recent times, the "other" Bernhard.

BTW, Refrath is a Limmy course as well, perhaps you mean Hoffmann designed the old course in the Cologne racetrack? The clubhouse in Wannsee was dismantled in 1997 and replaced by a new one - what a shame! Where did you find the data about Karl Hoffmann, seems like nobody here in Germany knows him.

Anyway, Bad Ems is a good course, but it's not world class. If someone interested in GCA would visit the area, I'd take them there, but just as well take them to Jakobsberg (Wolfgang Jersombeck, probably the best current German architect) or Rhein-Wied (don't know the architect).

http://www.jakobsberg.de/go.to/modix/now/hauptseite.htm
http://www.gc-rhein-wied.de/

Ulrich

[T_MacWood]

Ulrich
Limburger and Hoffman were partners before the war, with Hoffman being the senior partner. The firm began redesigning Koln-Refrath in the late 30s but the project was put on hold due to the war and it was not completed until the early 50s...by Limburger (Hoffman died right after the war).

I wish I knew more about Hoffman and Limberger, the little I do know comes from old books, magazines, newspapers and some recent articles. There was a good article by Christoph Meister on Limmy in the magazine 'Golf Architecture' (issue 7).

[Ulrich Mayring]

I just received an email from Christoph Meister, who says that Hoffmann and von Limburger started at about the same time. Hoffmann did Wannsee in 1925 and von Limburger did Föhr in 1926. He sent me an advertisement of their firm from 1933, which presents them as equal partners.

Apparently there will be more about both architects in the forthcoming chronicle of the German Golf Federation, which should be coming out for their 100th anniversary next year.

Ulrich

[John Kavanaugh]

Can someone tell me who is the architect of the interesting building at the port of Haifa...It is center screen during most bombing raids..What is the function of the building..