Sympathy For the Grass

[Jason Blasberg]

Yesterday I saw an interview and Calc and he said he felt "sorry for the grass" because it was so brown and essentially dead.  

My question to all those agronomists out there is how bad, if at all, is it for tee/fairway/rough or green grasses to brown out?


Is sympathy for the grass a legitimate maintenance concern or is it just expressing an aesthetic preference?

[John_Cullum]

That's a pretty good question.

I never hear about the links courses "losing their greens" and such. How old is the grass on these ancient links? Do they ever have to go in and plow it under and regrow them? There is always a course within 100 miles of me where that sort of stuff is going on. You would think that the old course would have suffered some catastrophy by now.

[George Pazin]

One of the supers or turf people could explain it better, but I don't think brown grass is necesssarily dead grass. It certainly isn't judging by my yard! I wish that damn grass would die.

You'd think a former Open champ would know that.

[Tom Huckaby]

George - this is the issue in the other thread - it's not dead grass, but it does take a LONG time to recover once it reaches a certain brown-ness.

I'm not an agronimist, but I play one on TV.

 

[George Pazin]

I can't speak for greens, but I've played baked out courses around here that seemed to bounce back rather quickly, following a little rain.

Same thing for my yard.

 

P.S. It getting harder and harder to stay ahead of you....

[RT]

Speaking of links course type grasses the fine fescues you see are just going in a dormant-like state until conditions are more favorable.

There is a certain point where they will become dessicated and then die, but that takes a very good doing.  Irrigation systems as mentioned are there to keep the grass alive and not necessarily green.

Al Radko (former USGA Greens Section Director) once said "golf is played off a surface and not a color".

[Jon Wiggett]

Don't be fooled by the colour, the grass is just fine. As already stated it has just gone dormant until conditions pick up. Such dry periods actually have a beneficial side effect of killing of a lot of unwanted weeds and grass.
As for playability it is possibly a better playing surface now than ever. Haven't heard many players complaining about the greens putting poorly like in the US Open.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon - but the grass on the greens still looks "green".  The question for us neophytes is what would happen if it gets brown color like many of the approaches and fairways...  I thought they don't let that happen because of various reasons - the members wouldn't like it, it takes a long time to bounce back, it's not healthy for the grass, etc.

Educate, please.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Most grass types are just dormant when brown, and will recover when moisture comes back.  

I recall renovating a defunct course in the desert that hadn't been irrigated in years, but with one rain, the bermuda was green the next day. The tan of tall fescues is used in design in out of play areas, where we count on them not getting too much irrigation.  Most northern homeowners have bluegrass lawns and have seen them brown in summer and recover in fall.  Ryes don't go dormant, they just seem to die under stress.....

Overall, turf is pretty tough stuff, and to cross back over to the overwatering thread, there is a reason that they became popular well before irrigation systems - they are cheap and easy cover and are adapted to their climates to use less water than just about any other type of plant materials.

[Doug Ralston]

Zoysia looks more brown than Hoylake in the Winter, but still gives great and consistent lies [if you like that sort of thing]. In the Spring ...... voila!

Doug

[Craig Sweet]

Aren't they hand watering those greens?

The fairways and rough will be fine once the cooler, wetter weather comes.

[Tom_Doak]

While I am sure Hoylake will recover, it's not as easy as it sounds.  Dormant grass usually recovers, but after 100,000 people have marched across it, some places in the roughs and crosswalks may be worn down to death.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom..you are right, but fortunately there are sod farms.

Some fairways do look as if they are dead grass and dirt right now.

[Adam Clayman]

it's not dead grass, but it does take a LONG time to recover once it reaches a certain brown-ness.
&
The question for us neophytes is what would happen if it gets brown color like many of the approaches and fairways...  I thought they don't let that happen because of various reasons - the members wouldn't like it, it takes a long time to bounce back, it's not healthy for the grass, etc.

Huck, I'm a little shocked at you not knowing this stuff. But, for your edification, it doesn't take a long time at all for the grass to recover. And, has been mentioned, it is actually healthier for the turf to starve the grass every once in awhile.

I'll give you a recent example. At my new home course   opening day was the brownest I had ever seen her. With half an inch of rain that morning, she really messed with your head. Looking fast, yet semi-soft. Well, within three days she was back to her darkish fescue green and playing firm. Counter intuitive indeed.

Please stop spreading the Augusta syndrome myth. And someone should call Calc and educate his arse, too.

To me this is a huge issue. Peoples perceptions are always so unimformed and the last thing we need is to perpetuate falsehoods. Especially when the sport is best played when their is bounce and roll, not splat and stop.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

And just how am I spreading the Augusta myth?  Good lord man, I love firm and fast likely as much as you.  I love brown likely as much as you.  I know I like firm and fast conditions as much as you....  I understand perfectly well that most grass can go brown and be very healthy, bouncing back to green very quickly.

All I am speculating on, and asking about, is why the PUTTING SURFACES at Hoylake right now still appear green in color - because they do, relative to the rest of the course.   Why are they kept green (relatively) when the rest of the course is left to go brown?  My statement in my post in this thread referred ONLY to the putting surfaces - not to the rest of the course.

I guess your misperception here is caused because what's going on in this thread is tied to what was going on in another... read the "Why we Love the British Open" thread, read the exchanges between me and George Pazin - then this might make more sense.

In any case then, I'd take the education from you as well:  if the putting surfaces can do just fine the same shade of brown as the approaches and most of the fairways, then why are they damn near never - anywhere - allowed to get this color?  Why does the whole world - including the great links of the UK and Ireland - keep them some shade of green?

My understanding was indeed that with grass that short - and it changes depending on the type of grass - it would indeed either die or take a long time to come back.  Thus they are kept at least a little green.

But please do correct me if I am wrong.

But if I am right - well then, I'd appreciate an apology.

In any case the LAST thing I meant is that courses on the whole need to be kept green... again I'm just asking about putting surfaces!

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Huck, Forgive me if you thought I was coming down on you. I did miss your limitation to Hoylakes greens. And I never accused you of spreading the Augusta myth, I asked that we all debunk it.

It would be my guess that the greens have some green still in them is because they did apply some water to them.

Also,

As i understand it the grass goes dormant when overly streessed. Since, the likelhood is that there are many different types of grasses mixed into the turf at Hoylake, what you are seeing is one strain that gave up sooner than others.

Is that any more helpful?

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - that is much better - thanks.

 

More education is needed though:  George speculated that they COULD make those putting surfaces faster, but that they keep them as they are because in order to get them faster, they'd have to water them more, then cut them lower (as apparently is what happens with American bent grass).   So they'd gain speed, but sacrifice firmness.

My take was that's not possible with the fescue or whatever it is in those Hoylake putting surfaces - that they are pretty much as fast as they can get now without letting them go brown.  

Any help with that?

The whole thing is very curious for me....

TH

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom one easy way of looking at it is with fescues the longer it is the browner it is when it is dry. I also suspect that the greens are recieving some water and probably for the reason of speed. If they were to go browner it wouldn't have to mean that they weren't heathly although any grass that is cut so short is under more stress.

[Adam Clayman]

TH, I dont think I can help anymore with Hoylake's greens. But, I'd say the greens going brown won't speed them up, until they get completely trampled. Which won't really happen with so few actually playing there.  As for what George says, it makes sense to me, if I understood what you said he said, correctly.

Hopefully Brad can chime in with some case specifics for Royal Liverpool.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam and Jon - this does help a lot - many thanks.

So OK, I think this is a situation where George and I are both right.  That is, George's theory is correct - it's just so far fetched as to have little relevance, I think.  That is, it's so against character for a UK links to soak their greens so they can then cut them shorter that it's a point not really worth considering.  You might as well ask why they don't use artificial grass placemats on the tees (and yes I do know they do make you carry around such a thing at TOC in winter!).

But the main thing as to why they are a little green now - and not allowed to go brown - why still being relatively "slow"
at least compared to American bent grass greens - is for the health of the grass.  They're getting a little water to keep them healthy.

Correct?

TH

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, I think they are feeding them because they don't want another Shinnecock. Which, IMO illustrates just how stupid "they" can be! Links golf is meant to test and recognize the best player. It's also suppose to leave matters to mother nature. Her moisture as well as her glorious often unpredictable bounce and roll. Move the damn tournament later in the fall or earlier in the spring. This summer weather has sucked for most of the last opens, save for Saturday at St. Georges.

[Tom Huckaby]

Aye, now we are getting down to getting down!

I really didn't think they were feeding them to avoid another Shinnecock or for any speed reasons at all... I really thought it was just to keep them alive.

If this is the case, then why is it that all UK links have greenish color greens damn near always?  That is, they never get as brown as the fairways/approaches.  Are all clubs living in fear of speed they see as goofy?

Or do I have that wrong?  I just do not recall ever seen a brown putting surface - not in person, not in pictures, not on TV.

TH

[Doug Siebert]

I was cleaning out my garage last Sunday and I have an extra storm window in there.  I laid it down on the grass sprayed water on it on both sides to clean the cobwebs off it, and left it there with the other stuff for a couple hours while the garage dried out.  That evening I noticed that area was getting brown and that brown square has become a very light yellow at this point.  Dunno if the wet glass magnified the sun or it acted as a mini greenhouse and burned it out (the temp was about 100F with high humidity that put the heat index over 110F that day)

So that grass I have sympathy for, because I may have killed a nice even rectangular section of my backyard and it is going to look pretty stupid having a rectangular section of weeds there next year if doesn't come back to life.  But I don't have sympathy for brown grass on a golf course, because that's the color it is supposed to be when it hasn't rained much lately!!

[Craig Sweet]

Doug...walk about 20 paces away, place the window on the lawn and burn another rectangle...dig both rectangles out, fill with clay, stick an iron rod in the middle of the clay "pits" you have dug and get some horseshoes....

[ForkaB]

My understanding, based on absolutely zero book learning but 25-30 years of observation is that:

1.  It is virtually impossible to "kill" links grasses
2.  You can, however, compact the turf in which they grow if they are kept at the brink of life for too long with too much foot traffic (viz the walkways--they will take some time to recover, but it will involve mostly aeration, scarification and moisture (rain)
3.  Brown links grasses will turn green overnight if you put enough water on them.  The Hoylake greens looked greneer on Thrus. than they did on Wed. becuaes they got rain!
4.  While it is relatively easy to resuscitate stressed out links grasses, if you overfeed and over water them it can take years for them to recover.  Carnoustie is still carrying a few scars from 1999 and Dornoch really didn't get better until the mid-late 90's from inapropriate maintenance practices (Augusta Syndrome) adopted in the mid-80's.

Bottom line.  No sympathy needed for the grass at Hoylake.  In fact they could have probably made it a little faster and firmer if they had wanted to.

All IMVHO, of course.