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Joel_Stewart

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Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« on: July 20, 2006, 10:39:18 PM »
Not that it matters but it seems that none do.  

Should it be installed for emergency purposes?

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2006, 03:31:45 AM »
According to the Links Trust there was an irrigation system installed on their courses, including the Old, back in 2001 - if I comprehend the information provided in their timeline right.

Turnberry does also have irrigation.

Sean_A

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Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2006, 03:44:48 AM »
I would be amazed to discover if an Open course didn't have irrigation.  I don't think there all that many links which don't have irrigation.  I am sure that they all did for the greens many years ago.  For fairways I know some have been installed (reinstalled) in recent years.  In any case, Hoylake will most certainly be hand watering for the Open because it is more accurate (trying to water the tops of rolls rather than the valleys).

The difference between irrigation and not is startling.  North Wales was burnt out a month ago.  After this weather the fairways will essentially be dust.  Same goes for Pennard.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brian_Ewen

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Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2006, 04:29:59 AM »
There was a snippet on BBC , with Ken Brown talking with one of the grenstaff while he was hand-watering one of the greens . If I remember right , the conversation went :

He asked if they ever used the sprinklers ? .

""Very seldom as we prefer to hand water .""

For how long ? .

""Depends on the design of the green , anything between 10 to 20 minutes per green at the end of the day .""

« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 05:35:12 AM by Brian_Ewen »

RT

Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2006, 05:14:39 AM »
Carnoustie-Full System
Royal Lytham & St. Annes- Full System
Muirfield- Fairways only

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2006, 06:52:02 AM »
Russell has it right.  Muirfield only has irrigation on the fairways, NOT on the greens -- if the greenkeeper wants to water the greens he has to send out someone to do it by hand, which really cuts down on the overwatering.  And one reason Muirfield still has a high population of fescue in its greens.

Royal St. George's has a full system, too; so does Royal Troon.  I believe the R & A made it a requirement for Royal Troon to get the Open back after it was bone dry in 1962 and nobody could hit it in some of the fairways.  They are for emergencies as Joel suggested ... but their idea of an emergency is different than ours!

« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 06:52:52 AM by Tom_Doak »

Paul_Turner

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Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2006, 07:32:48 AM »
I didn't know that about Muirfield.

I would guess that all the rest have full irrigation.

I wonder how much water they use per year.  Compare this with a typical country club here in the US. 10%?

A lot of the less famous links only have green irrigation.  They must be really suffering this year.

Imagine how Rye is playing.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 07:35:21 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2006, 09:08:27 AM »
I recall playing TOC in 1980 and they had new greens watering with a Weathermatic system, which was a minor golf player even in those days, and non existent today. I suspected they gave them the system to say they watered the old course.  However, the caddy told me they "rarely" used the system, and the heat wave of 1980 was similar to what they are experiencing this year.

On TV today, it appeared that Hoylake had a center row system, or at least I saw some green spots about the right distance apart on those aerial virtual caddy shots.

They might have full irrigation systems capable of pumping out 1000-1500 GPM, but a supply source capable of just a few hundred gpm.  It would be interesting to hear from someone who knows if the systems limit watering, or if its a culture among the supers not to water.

Slightly OT - but does this Open and its universally low scores change anyone's mind about firm and fast? I got to thinking that those conditions are just like sand bunkers - they help the great players and hurt the average ones 4X for everything they might do to a good player.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2006, 09:44:11 AM »
Slightly OT - but does this Open and its universally low scores change anyone's mind about firm and fast? I got to thinking that those conditions are just like sand bunkers - they help the great players and hurt the average ones 4X for everything they might do to a good player.

Doesn't change mine at all, but for me, it's about the shots, not the scores. I also think your last statement is a bit off.

 :)

Ask yourself this question: How do you think Hoylake would play if maintained as a US country club does, nice and lush and green?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2006, 10:28:35 AM »
I love Donald Ross's quote about watering. It pretty much sums up the differences between the US and the UK. His quote goes something like:

"The purpose of watering is not to keep grass green, but to keep it alive."

Bob

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2006, 10:35:04 AM »
Slightly OT - but does this Open and its universally low scores change anyone's mind about firm and fast? I got to thinking that those conditions are just like sand bunkers - they help the great players and hurt the average ones 4X for everything they might do to a good player.

I don't think the intent is to limit scoring, but to increase the variance.
Tiger can still go low, with thoughtful and skillful play.
Someone can shoot 76 just as easily with only a slight difference in ability.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2006, 10:43:06 AM »
Mike,

I was thinking that at first - no reason to base anything in gca on the incredible skills of Tiger. But when they said there was record number of scores below par, I thought that the conditions may help a wider range of good players.  Just idle musings, of course, based on watching the telly ten minutes this morning - before coffee, no less.

Bob,

While there is still some overwatering, and there is the image of overwatering, many, many superintendents now water less (because of water restrictions, cost, or because they "get it" and will argue that is what they do, perhaps modifying Ross' phrase "to keep it healthy."  And, the stronger the turf, the less prone it is to weeds and disease, so their are some environmental benefits to watering correctly, while overwatering can increase compaction and make turf disease prone.

I have a fairly well known design that changed  superintendents that illustrates the differences in watering approaches of enlightened supers.  Based on local climate, we had calculated that it would need 26 million gallons in an average year, and told the water board it would need 10% more as a fudge factor in dry years.

It has a weather station, so I know the first super used almost 50 million gallons one year, and when pressed, reduced it to 44 million gallons.  The second super (who was so good he got spirited away to another course) kept the same records and got watering right back down to the calculated nut. More impressively, he used the system to water only when needed.  You can track the rain and temperature and he only watered when it didn't rain.

The former supt. never changed his computer settings from grow in, and watered to that level every day of the year, and the course was soggy even on hot days.  That, BTW, wasn't atypical in the early days of computer watering when no one really knew how to operate those beasts!

My belief is that the computers could be used to water even less. There is a tendency to look at the weather station and see your Evapotranspiration was 0.25" last night and water that amount to fill the soil back up to "field capacity."   However, turf usually won't go dormant until it hits 33% of field capacity.  While no super would live that much on the edge, I think watering less is possible for many.

If field capacity is 3", turf will do fine if it has 1" of water in the profile,.  If they let the profile go down 50% to 1.5", and assumed  it would rain once every ten days, (you desert guys can stop reading now....) they could get by with 0.15" less water per night and only water .1" per night, or 0.2" every other night.  If it didn't rain, they would have to bump the watering up eventually, but probably would save more in the long run by not watering the night after it rained.

Sorry for the soapbox, as I know most supers are super committed to water conservation and playing conditions their members would like.   Also, every course is a bit different and the firm and fast isn't always an option.  However,  I feel like you guys do and think every little bit helps.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 11:07:09 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2006, 12:03:05 PM »
The scoring is low not only because the course is firm and dry, but because this is the first Open they've played in a long time with four par-5 holes, all of which are reachable for the pros.  The USGA would have had par at 70, and de facto par for these players is probably 69 ... which would make Tiger -6 or -8 right now instead of -12.

Even at that, they do not seem to be having too much trouble with the course.  Maybe they should have left the boundary on the Dowie!

Jeff B:  I spent a lot of time with Walter Woods in St. Andrews in the summer of 1982 ... which was very droughty.  He took me out one night to see how he watered the fourth green.  Basically, they opened a fire hose on it for about twenty minutes and flooded it, there was standing water for probably five minutes before it all soaked in.  But I don't think they had watered that green for a couple of weeks of drought before that.  Talk about deep, infrequent watering!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2006, 12:30:17 PM »
The beauty of deep, infrequent watering (although St. Andrews seems a bit extreme!) is that it makes roots go deeper, in effect increasing field capacity, and allowing the plant to go even longer without water.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2006, 12:33:54 PM »
Jeff -

No doubt supers are using less water in the US and certainly that is a good thing.

But if the super at my course in Atlanta let it brown up for a nano second, even for a nano second in just a few spots, he would be fired before his next cup of coffee, his house razed, and his wife and children hounded out of town. Or something like that.

The point of the Ross quote is that a little brown-out is not a bad thing. In fact, it can be a very good thing. But it ain't gonna happen much in the US because most members at US courses perceive brown grass as superintendant negligence.

(The guys at my club, watching Hoylake on the tube yesterday, figured that the only reason they let it go brown was because Hoylake couldn't afford an irrigation system. Which they thought was quaint.)

Bob


Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2006, 12:41:20 PM »
Bob,

I know a super who lost his job by drying out the course to get rid of poa, so I understand what you are saying.  I think that in many areas of the country, its possible to water less and get green - with occaisional brownish tinge in the roughs, which I like - using less water than is presumed, and that many supers are doing it.  Well, but not overwatered grass can be green, but not bright, yet soggy green.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JohnV

Re:Do any Open rota courses have irrigation?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2006, 02:38:51 PM »
While it isn't on the Open rota, I have to tell this story.

My ex and I were playing Ballybunion with two members in 1997.  After the round, we were inside have a Guiness or two and they were telling stories.

I mentioned how I love the firm/fast conditions and they agreed.  But, they said, there is an irrigation system in place in case of a severe drought.  It turns out that they had a pretty severe drought that spring and one of the guys said he asked the superintendent when they would be turning the sprinklers on.  The Super said, that they hadn't used it in so long they had forgotten how and that there was a service guy from England that was coming over the next week to show them how. ;)