Should architecture dictate putting speeds

[Brent Hutto]

But my question remains...and I'm asking because I don't know the answer, not to be rhetorical. On firm, very fast greens isn't it be possible for a fairly small ridge to produce the division that you describe?

My home course has several greens divided by the ridges you're talking about. It's been my observation that when they have them Stimping at 11+ and quite firm, even the smallest of the ridges force the ball to one side or another. On a different day when they're Stimping at 9.5-10 and somewhat receptive, the big noticable ridges perform that function but the more subtle ones don't get a chance to affect approach shots unless they're with a long iron or something.

[Doug Siebert]

Brent,

When this topic came up a few years ago I originally thought as you did, but when you think about it a bit more it is pretty apparent that a slope that breaks a 30 foot putt at a 90* angle at stimp 7 and one that breaks a 30 foot putt at a 90* angle at stimp 14 may be identical when the ball is rolling, but it certainly isn't so when the ball is bouncing, so you lose a lot of possible options for those first few bounces before your ball settles down and rolls.

You may have a 6% grade at stimp 7 and a 1% grade at stimp 14 (I'm sure the magnitude is wrong there, this is just an illustration) to get a given amount of break when the ball is rolling.  But if you fly a ball into that grade it will be two very different spots with different angles and velocities at the point they start rolling.  THAT is what wilder greens that are a bit less on the stimp will give you that is missing on the nearly flat turbo stimp greens some courses have today.  They may play nearly the same when they are overwatered so there is really only one small bounce and then the ball is rolling but the firmer the greens the more you will miss the extra contour and realize that faster greens only make up for it when you have a putter in your hands.

[TEPaul]

"Yep, they definitely think that way. It ends up leading to my least-favorite maintainance meld. Grass that's trimmed short enough to Stimp at 10.5 but in order to keep it healthy at that length it has to be kept squishy-wet."

Brent:

Browsing through some of the posts on this thread in the last day or so it seems to me there're a number of real misconceptions on here and probably a lot of misinformation.

What you said above seems pretty counterintuitive to me too. I'm basically from the Northeast (bent and poa) but I sure have played enough southern golf (below the transition zone). I definitely don't know much about bermuda like I do with bent but I'd seriously doubt bermuda needs to be kept "squishy-wet" to be kept healty. I doubt keeping any golf agronomy "squishy-wet" is heathy, particularly when it's mowed low enough to achieve 10.5 on the stimp.

Bent grass is healthiest when it can be conditioned to be lean and dry and deep rooted. I can't imagine why bermuda would be inherently much different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brent Hutto,

Irrespective of the speed, substantive contouring will deflect approach and recovery shots to a greater extent.

A ball hit into the slope of a three foot ridge or tier will be deflectd far more than a ball hit into a subtle ridge or tier.

Doug Siebert,

Viewing the question in the context of exteme speeds of 7 and 14 doesn't address the issue.

I'd imagine that speeds of 8.5 to 10.5 are more the norm for most courses.

You have to consider more than deflection, you have to think of the effect of directly uphill and downhill slopes on ridges and tiers.

In addition, all to often, highly contoured or sloped greens are only thought of in the context of slow speeds, when nothing could be further from the truth.

NGLA, Winged Foot, Westhampton, Hidden Creek and many other courses keep their greens relatively fast when Mother Nature permits.

Hence, I wouldn't view the discussion in the context that contoured or sloped greens are inherently SLOW.

They may be maintained slower than non-contoured or sloped greens, but, in terms of absolute speed, they're not slow.