Repeating similar shots

[Matt_Cohn]

On the back nine of the Presidio Golf Course here in SF, holes 10, 11, and 12 clearly call for draws, 13, 14 and 15 are dead straight, and 16, 17, and 18 all require cuts. I haven't observed a similar setup anywhere else.

Has anyone seen a similar course with balancing but repetitive demands?

Architects, do you you ever design, say, two draw holes in a row - the first open the build a sense of (false) confidence, and the second deceptively tight to lure the golfer into extra trouble as a result of the shot sequence?

[Scott Witter]

Matt:

Honestly, I have never given it thought, not intentionally that is to say.  I work to achieve the optimum routing the site offers and much depends as we know on the site in many different ways.  Unfortunately, we have not been given many large sites that afforded a lot of room or flexibility. Nevertheless, we find the best layout the site will offer no matter what the constraints may be.

After completing many routings we also study the flow of the holes from many important points of view, wind direction, sun angles, uphill vs downhill holes, rhythm of par sequencing, fade holes, draw holes, etc...but I have never intentionally placed back to back or similar sets of holes such as you describe unless the site called for it first.  I suspect, however, some of the touring pros have achieved such a sequence of holes based on their design approach, but I highly doubt if any of the architect's who post here and those who are discussed here that approach design in this manner.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I route to the land, (usally doing several options) and then do an assessment of left and right bends.  If one routing uses the land better and another gets more variety, I try to combine them, but sometimes, as Scott says, you just have to go with what the land gives.

Manhattan CC in Kansas has all dogleg rights on the front nine, and all lefts on the back.  While not ideal, club lore has some great stories of competitors being down by five at the turn, but storming back after the course fits their game on the back nine.  As they say in other sports, no lead is safe.

The point is, while alternating shots in something close to a perfect pattern, all other things being equal, other things are rarely equal.

[RJ_Daley]

Once, while playing a round at Lawsonia with John Vander Borght, he summed up in one playing something that I hadn't really noted in all the years I've gone there. On holes where there are doglegs, it is all right turns!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Of course, the granddaddy of repeating shots is Chicago Golf, where CBMac routed the course with all perimeter holes having OB left to account for his slice...

[Glenn Spencer]

Chicago GC has some competition and it comes from Muirfield Village. 6 and 13 are level and 15 is ever-so slightly uphill, otherwise, ever single hole plays downhill off the tee. Part of the reason, I feel this place is severely overrated, but I am in the minority on that.

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

The Presidio course has been changed/altered many times over the years. The most obvious being that the nines were switched when the Palmer group took over running the course 10 years ago.

Relative to your post, it should be noted that holes #10 & #18 (which used to be #1 & #9) were reversed 30 or so years ago. The greens are where the tees used to be and vice-versa. One of the reasons they made the change was that too many people were slicing their 1st hole tee shots (from where the 18th green now is) into the woods on the right.

You should also be aware that the current #1 hole used to play as a dogleg-left thru where the driving range now is. What is now the fairway landing area to your tee shot on #1 used to be all underbrush and a creekbed. Up until the 1960's, there was no driving range at the Presidio.

Finally, holes #7 & #9, which now are a par-3 and a par-5, used to both be par-4's. The tee on #7 was 30-40 yards further back and the tee on #9 was 40-50 yards further forward from where they now are.

All of these changes were made at some point after the Western Open was played there (and won by Mike Fetchick) in 1956.

DT
     

[Glenn Spencer]

Presidio must be doing something right. I shot 80 there and played pretty good there and was not happy with the score, but I played good. My friend shot his career round there of 83 and he is probably an 18-20 handicap. I thought it was pretty impossible. We were lucky that we played there, but I was glad that we did. This was in 97, so it has been a while

[David_Tepper]

Glenn -

I was a member at the Presidio GC from 1983 to 1999. I played a lot of golf there. It is certainly one of those Bay Area courses that plays a lot longer than the yardage on the card.

They held a US AM qualifier at the Presidio once in the early 1990's. Out of the 150 or so rounds played there that day, I don't think there were more than 4 or 5 scores of par or better. A lot of very good players did not break 150 for their 2 rounds that day.

DT

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn -

I was a member at the Presidio GC from 1983 to 1999. I played a lot of golf there. It is certainly one of those Bay Area courses that plays a lot longer than the yardage on the card.

They held a US AM qualifier at the Presidio once in the early 1990's. Out of the 150 or so rounds played there that day, I don't think there were more than 4 or 5 scores of par or better. A lot of very good players did not break 150 for their 2 rounds that day.

DT

Yes, I liked the course and the difficulty. Amazing that my friend was able to shoot 83 there. He really was playing well, some courses just suit you, I guess. Great golf course. Played Presidio and Pasatiempo, not bad for something we almost didn't bring our clubs for.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Of course, the granddaddy of repeating shots is Chicago Golf, where CBMac routed the course with all perimeter holes having OB left to account for his slice...

There's also a well known course in Scotland which has been around for over 500 years that has OB right on almost every hole...

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