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Sean_Tully

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Old sand greens and construction methods
« on: July 16, 2006, 03:12:59 PM »
I was wondering about the construction methods of the old sand greens that were used before grass became the standard. Yesterday, I looked at some old sand greens that have not been used since the early 1920's at least. It was interesting to note that the top layer had become very hard, almost like asphalt. This is obvioulsy due to the oil that they would apply to it over the years while it was in use. What I found interesting was the layer of 1/4" gravel material that was under it.

Is anyone aware of the construction methods and maintenance of the old greens? I know that there are some courses in the plains that still have sand greens. One course that I never got to was up in Red Feather Lakes just north of Fort Collins, CO.

Tully

Sean_Tully

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Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2006, 03:51:12 PM »
Well, I just found some references to sand greens at Pasture Golf website. What I am looking for, is specific historical information as in an old golf magazine or book. Will look at what the Pasture golf site has to offer but really want period information if at all possible.

Tully

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2006, 05:40:15 PM »
Sean:

We are going to do some work shortly on a very old course which originally had sand greens ... and found one remnant just as you described, the oil had turned it all to asphalt after it was abandoned.

Troy Alderson

Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2006, 06:37:48 PM »
Sean,

I am interested also in what you find, please share with the treehouse once you find the info.  For what I know;

Periodic applications of waste oil, how? I do not know, sprayed on by a oil company probably.

I would also think that raking is necessary periodically to keep the surface from becoming asphalt.

A roller was used to smooth out the path to the hole and a special cup was used as sand fills the cup.

Apparently the sand greens came about because of the lack of water and cost of a system in remote areas.

PastureGolf.com is a great resource to find the info.

Troy

Bob_Huntley

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Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2006, 07:03:38 PM »
Sean,

I am interested also in what you find, please share with the treehouse once you find the info.  For what I know;

Periodic applications of waste oil, how? I do not know, sprayed on by a oil company probably.

I would also think that raking is necessary periodically to keep the surface from becoming asphalt.

A roller was used to smooth out the path to the hole and a special cup was used as sand fills the cup.

Apparently the sand greens came about because of the lack of water and cost of a system in remote areas.

PastureGolf.com is a great resource to find the info.

Troy


Troy,

I last played a round of golf on sand greens at Beit Bridge G.C. in Southern Rhodesia, down near the South African border, back in 1963.

One did not play the ground game or run-up shot, it was in the air and as high as possible. The smoothing of the sand was sone with a scraper, think of a broom without the bristles.

I have no idea of the maintenance meld used.


Bob

Troy Alderson

Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2006, 07:14:15 PM »
Bob,

Thank you for the info, the sand was also smoothed with a turned over carpet.  Footprints would marked up the surface.  I suppose each course had its own way of maintaining the surface.

I am interested in what the speed of the putts were.

Troy

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2006, 08:05:26 PM »
Here is some info that I found regarding sand greens all found
in magazines of the period. Rather interesting info! I was interested in sand greens after lookiing at some photos of sand greens in California around the turn of the century. Some of the greens where a dark color while some were very white in comparison. I had always understood it as fact that the greens were maintained using an oil, so I surprised to see the mention of using water to keep the greens in good condition. Gotta love the last comment, true to this day, some things will never change.


It is very interesting to note the various local rules which obtain at the principal Southern golfing resorts in respect to sand greens. At Palm Beach, for instance, a ball on the sand
may be lifted and freed from any accumulated sand, and the line of putt
may be lightly brushed across.At Augusta the ball may be lifted,
cleaned, and placed on any part of the green, not nearer the hole; but the line
of putt must not be interfered with. At Pinehurst they do things differently.
There the ball must be played as it lies and the line of putt must not
be touched. Some years ago the custom which prevails at Palm Beach was
followed, but of recent years it was abandoned owing to the abuses which
grew out of the practice. As a result there arose a demand on the part of
the players for well-kept greens; constant brushing to keep the surface
smooth, and systematic watering to keep the sand properly damp. And it
must be acknowledged that the Pinehurst greens are excellently cared for.
There is really no necessity for anylocal rules if proper care is bestowed
on the greens.

The American Golfer, April, 1912


Work has been started on the new Druid Hill course, which is situated on
the Ponce de Leon road about three and a half miles from the center of the
City of Atlanta. This course was planned by H. H. Barker, and will be
about sixty-four hundred yards in length. There will be four one shot
holes, two going out and the same number coming home, and the course
has been so arranged that both sides are exactly equal in length. The three
branches which run through this property have been used to great advantage
as a number of the greens have been placed so that they are protected
in front by a water hazard. The greens will be made of bermuda
grass with the exception that in the center of each green will be a fifteen foot
circle of sand, which will give a player a good chance to hole his six
and seven-foot putts, while the rest of the green being grass will allow a ball
to be played to the green and held, which is extremely difficult on sand
greens.

The American Golfer, August, 1912


The green committee of the Savannah Golf Club have decided to do away with their grass greens and to substitute oiled sand greens in their places, while at the Charleston Golf Club they have about made up their mind to put in grass greens to take the place of the oiled sand greens, which they have at present. Truly golfers are never satisfied.

The American Golfer, April, 1912

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2006, 08:13:32 PM »
Bob,

Thank you for the info, the sand was also smoothed with a turned over carpet.  Footprints would marked up the surface.  I suppose each course had its own way of maintaining the surface.

I am interested in what the speed of the putts were.

Troy

Slow, very slow. It took a Bill Casper rap to get the ball going.

Bob

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2006, 08:18:33 PM »
Here we get into the nitty gritty and get an idea of the construction and manipulation of the greens and the different types for each region.




GREENS.
The vulnerable part of most southern golf courses are the putting greens.
Composed as they are of a basis of clay with a superficial
sprinkling of sand, they are entirely at the mercy of the elements. A
heavy wind, and the top dressing of sand disappears; rain turns everything
into a puddle, a similar result following the thawing from an occasional
freeze. So that putting becomes impossible.On one or two the native Bermuda
grass is utilized, but its very nature will ever forbid more than an apology
for a real, true putting surface . . .except possibly in the extreme South,
or in Cuba, where growth is continuous. But for the in-between sections the drawbacks just cited are ever-present. The remedy appears simple. Why not take a leaf out of the book of
experiences of California and Texas, where oiled greens are the rule. Not
only are they impervious to wind, or rain, or freezing, but the plastic nature
is such that pitch shots may be played in pretty much the same way
as on a regular turf green.


The American Golfer, May, 1913



GRASS GREENS FOR SOUTHERN COURSE
For nine years I have had charge of the course of the College Arms Golf Club, at DeLand, Fla.
What a time I had with the sand greens the first two years! The Florida sand drifts like snow with the
slightest wind. I had an idea that grass greens could be produced, and I received permission to make a trial one. Accordingly, I laid one out and sowed it on the 15th of January, and it more than came up to my most sanguine expectations. The following year I made the home green similarly. It proved a beauty. I had it mowed and rolled every morning, and putting matches were held on it; all kinds of
heels were worn, and it proved most satisfactory all the season. This green was planted on December
2, and was in commission on December 15.
Encouraged by these successes, I seeded the whole nine greens, and the general verdict was that they were much better than the average Northern greens. Each season since then they have been enlarged, and the putting surface has considerably improved. I commence work about November 1, and have them all planted in ten days. Usually the first ones planted or seeded are green before the last one is finished. One can see the young plants the third day. The seed germinates very rapidly. I find it is necessary to reseed every season as the Northern grass seeds which I use (my own mixture) will not stand the hot summers.
The soil in DeLand is very ordinary and sandy even for Florida. There are several very important
features in having grass greens in the South. In the first place, the putting surface remains the same irrespective of wind or rain; secondly, any desired undulations can be made; thirdly, approaches can be pitched on a green exactly the same as in the North; and, finally, the putting stroke is the same.
It may be added that turf greens, if properly laid out, are much cheaper to get into condition and maintain than sand greens.

The American Golfer, May, 1913


Mr. Robert L. James, Butler, has arrived home after spending a delightful three weeks of revelry at Pinehurst. Mr. James, although he was not successful in winning any medals or honors, remarked that he had had a fine time. The weather was delightful and the competition in the various tournaments was very keen. Mr. James stated that he did not see much difference between the grass greens and the sand greens. Except that the sand greens seemed to be somewhat truer than the Northern greens, although the courses are about on a par with the good courses of the North.


The American Golfer, May, 1913



Ouimet's showing at Pinehurst was not impressive. On practically all Southern courses run-up shots are essential, in contradistinction to lofted approaches. Sand greens are responsible. Without this shot a player is greatly handicapped. It has been said that a truly great golfer is one who can adapt his game to local requirements.

Harry Vardon had no trouble at Pinehurst or elsewhere on his first trip some fourteen years ago in so accommodating himself. So that it is not a little disappointing to find our Open champion has a weak spot in his armor, in that he knows nothing of this particular stroke. Indeed, how should he? None of the courses he has done much of his playing on demand other than the plain, stereotyped approach which answer so well on inland courses generally, but are not equally adapted for such windy seaside
links as St. Andrews, for instance, where the undulating nature of the ground does not lend itself favorably to other than shots with a low trajectory.

The American Golfer, March, 1914


It is interesting to note that Ouimet is given the treatment here, but in another article he is goven glowing praise for his knack for putting on the sand greens.

Tully

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2006, 08:21:07 PM »
Some more info... I'm off to go get 18 in before it gets dark! Hope all of this is enlightening.

Tully




The 1915 season at Belleair was inaugurated with a team match, twentytwo a side, captained respectively by Mr. Douglas Smith and Mr. W. R. Stenger, the former team winning by
21 points to 18, on the Nassau system.Mr. C. J. Winton, of the Minikahda
Club, of Minneapolis, had the best medal score, with 47, 47-94. At the close of last year's season,
Donald J. Ross started the reconstruction of the two eighteen holes courses. The work was completed last Fall and reflects great credit upon the architectural skill displayed by the designer.
Belleair is one of the few places in the South where turf greens obtain.
At practically all the other resorts, sand greens are in use. There is a very excellent array of
professional talent in charge of the two courses, consisting of Macdonald Smith, the Metropolitan Open champion; his noted brother, Alex Smith; Carl Anderson and Ernest Anderson.

The American Golfer, February, 1915




SOUTHERN
GREENS
For the larger part practically all the greens of the south -e r n courses a r e
k n o w n as sand greens, in contradistinction to turf greens. The only
resort courses which are composed of the latter are at Belleair and DeLand.
The latter are pronounced exceptionally fine. At Belleair the greens have
as a foundation Bermuda grass, which is treated with humus and on top of
this Italian Rye is sown, making a very fair substitute for the regular
turf greens such as obtain in northern latitudes.
It is somewhat curious to note the different local customs that obtain at
the various courses. At Pinehurst, for instance, the ball must be played
where it lies; there is no lifting and cleaning it from any sand which may
attach to it, nor is any smoothing of the surface allowed. On the other
hand, at Palm Beach, a player is permitted to lift and clean his ball and to
lightly brush the line of h i s putt. There is a v e r y good reason for
this, in that the sand at the latter resort is of a very fine quality and readily
clings to the ball, while, of course, indentations are m o r e easily produced
on the surfaceof the green itself; although, inall fairness, be it
said, there is rarely any occasion to exercise the right
of brushing the line of putt as the greens a r e most carefully looked after.


At Augusta the ball may be lifted on the green and placed on any part
of it, not nearer the hole—which cannot be said to be a good rule.
Sand greens are not all alike. Their speed, and trueness, depend very
largely on the quality and character of the sand used as a dressing; and on
the care bestowed on them in sweeping. For the most part, however, they
are all good, and offer a pleasing change to the orthodox turf greens.

The American Golfer, April, 1915



The second round, on Friday afternoon, was started in a cold, pelting
rain, which soon converted the sand greens into seas of mud, helped a
little, however, later on by the cutting of new holes on isolated corners of
the greens. But at the best it was terribly trying to those who braved
the ordeal. Many preferred to lettheir matches go by default.

The American Golfer, May, 1915


THERE ARE greens and greens—turf
greens and sand greens. A whole multitude of greens, good, bad and
indifferent, in inverse ratio, alack! In northern latitudes—north of the
Mason and Dixon Line—we have the turf greens. To the south, for the
greater part, sand greens are the rule. What are sand greens ? Sand greens
generally are circular patches varying in diameter from 15 to 20 yards, perfectly
level, the base or underneath part being composed usually of clay,
on top of which is superimposed a layer of sand from 1-16 to ½ inch in
depth. On different courses the top layer varies in depth. It may be said,
as a general thing, that the poorer the class of players, the greater is the
depth of sand. Let it be said, at the outset, that at most of these southern
courses. . .we are speaking now of resort courses... the majority of the
players would find extreme difficulty in asserting their right to take part in
an amateur championship. Singularly enough, the higher a
golfer's rating is, nationally considered, the better he is on a really
good green, and the poorer, relatively, on an indifferent one. Indeed, there
comes a stage in the putting conditions when the good putter's advantage
wholly disappears and he finds himself really inferior,according to the depravity
of the situation, so that on a poor green he has
to bow the knee to one who has no pretensions to class on a good putting surface.
On i n f e r i o r greens, whether of turf or sand, many a putt not destined for the hole finds
lodgment therein.They are terrible levellers. . . and altogether opposed to what makes for good golf.

The American Golfer, April, 1916

peter_p

Re:Old sand greens and construction methods
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2006, 08:31:59 PM »
Sean,
You could try Fairbanks G&CC, which I believe was sand greens well into the 1980s when it was remodeled by Graves.
http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/golf-course.asp?course=4

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