Harry Colt's Dream 18 in SI Golf Plus

[Gene Greco]

   No link but in this issue of Sports Illustrated Golf Plus is an article by Geoff Schakelford centering on the best 18 holes Royal Liverpool Architect H.S Colt designed.

The panel included Gil Hanse, our own Paul Turner and GOLF'S MOST BELOVED FIGURE.

If a link is not able to be provided I will post the 18 holes selected - it is quite impressive!

[Mike Policano]

Gene, I am currently in England and don't have access to the list.  Having just played Sunningdale-New, is at least one of the 18 from there?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

Sunningdale has three holes

New - 5 and 6
Old - 12, according to Paul Turner "Colt moved the green 70-80 yards"

Paul Turner,

Where is 17 @ County Sligo? I can't believe Ran did not lobby for it. Sadly this is the only Colt course that I have played, so I can't really argue the point.

[T_MacWood]

It is interesting that Hoylake would spark a Colt list. Does Geoff S. or the panel consider Hoylake a Colt course?

[Kevin Pallier]

Sunningdale has three holes
New - 5 and 6
Old - 12

The New's 5 & 6 are smashing holes...does someone have the link ?

[Gene Greco]

     The panel picked the Colt Dream 18 and Gil Hanse did the "routing."

It is as follows:

1.Muirfield #17
2.Swinley Forrest #12
3.Swinley Forrest #4
4.St. George's Hill #10
5.Sunningdale New #5
6.Hamilton #5
7.Camberley Heath #3
8.Swinley Forrest #8
9.St. Geoge's Hill #8

10.Sunningdale Old #12
11.Sunningdale New #6
12.Royal County Down #4
13.Rye #16
14.Royal Liverpool #11
15.Royal Portrush #5
16.Royal County Down #9
17.Royal Portrush #14
18.Royal Liverpool #17

[RT]

If one hole at Camberley Heath I'd pick 17 instead of 3.

Good to see 16 at Rye.  A quintessential Colt green, and surrounds, to see.  V.nice driving hole too up the angling ridge liine and to the left.

[Paul_Turner]

It was fun to help.

Tom

Regarding Colt and Hoylake, I think Geoff wanted to continue the theme from the other SI issues for Augusta and Winged Foot and Colt was the big name architect who redesigned with Hoylake.  But yes of course Hoylake is far from being a Colt original.

Mike

I did list 17th as Rosses Point (Sligo) as an option.   I actually think the 14th would be an even better choice.  But lots of courses to choose from...

RT

3rd Camberley was chosen because it's a par 5.  I lobbied for Kennemer's 16th instead but perhaps this was too obscure?

 

[T_MacWood]

Paul
What about Pine Valley?

[Paul_Turner]

Good question

5th a bit of a chiche?  Too much debate about attribution...

[T_MacWood]

Good question

5th a bit of a chiche?  Too much debate about attribution...

I hear you. Including it would perpetuate the myth that the 5th is the only thing Colt did at PV.

[Mike Policano]

Sunningdale Old #5 is a tough par 3.  It is 183 yards to an elevated green that falls off on all sides.  Bunkers to the right and heather left and back.  My tee shot was one yard left of the green and was catapulted 20 yards left.  Lovely.

[Mike Policano]

Sunningdale Old #6 is a 510 yard par 5.  Very good short par 5 from the back.  Tough driving hole over the heather with some water on the right side.  You can bite off as much or as little as you want.

Interestingly the green is protected by a bunker on the left side that is in a depression made by bombs from German bombers during WWII.

[Paul_Turner]

I think Colt's 17th at Hoylake (as it was before Steel's recent redesign) is a great choice. A celebrated hole and one of Mackenzie's and Simpson's favourites too, shame it's been changed.  

[Marty Bonnar]

Paul,
and nothing from the Eden?
Explain yourself, young man!

FBD.

[Paul_Turner]

Martin

I know! I did request a hole from the Eden.  Colt's proudest moment?  (I bet it's David Kidd's now)

Note that each hole had to be drawn, by Gil Hanse, for the article and I'm not sure that a decent plan was available for the Eden.  I've only walked the course and some time ago at that!  

My own list would have included many of those above but I would have spread them around a bit more to include more courses.  The problem with this is that the SI readers wouldn't have heard of many of them!

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood and Paul Turner:

Do you want to know exactly what Harry Colt did or did not do at Pine Valley or do you want to just continue to speculate and guess?  

By the way, last Thursday I actually interviewed George Crump's caddie. He's the real deal. Considering Crump died in January of 1918 it sort of blew my mind that I was actually sitting with and talking to a man who was Crump's regular little caddie for at least two years.

[T_MacWood]

I think we'd all love to know who did what at PV.

The dream 18s for MacKenzie, Tilly & Colt have been interesting but I'm wondering what they'll do for Medinah...Bendelow Dream 18 or Chicago Dream 18 or something else.

[Ian Andrew]

Nothing from Toronto Golf Paul ?

[Paul_Turner]

Ian

I included the 4th in my short list.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

1 hole from Rye and only 2 from Royal County Down. Those other 15 must be mighty good holes

[henrye]

I included the 4th in my short list.

Great hole, but I would have thought 9 & 15 might get consideration.

Sunningdale Old's #12?  I thought Park did Sunningdale Old.  Did Colt do #12?

Did Colt do Rye or just the 16th there?

As for #4 at Swinley.  Interesting uphill shot, but my least favourite of all the 3's there.

[Paul_Turner]

Henry

Sunningdale's 12th.  Colt moved the green about 80 yards forward, left and up onto it's current site on the knoll.  I believe that that the chain of bunkers were added then too.  

The general shape of the tee shot probably wasn't changed much from Park's design although I don't see the "bottle" feature that inspired MacDonald's 8th at NGLA.

(Many of the greens and features at Sunn Old are Colt's design, greens: 4,5,6,7,8,11,12,13,15,17)

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Thanks to SI editor Jim Herre, I've been able to post not-so-hot scans of the Colt 18 text and map by Gil drawn in the style of Colt. I'm also going to get the MacKenzie and Tillinghast maps up for those who don't get Golf Plus to see what you are missing. We are doing a Dream 18 for Chicago in the PGA issue (no, the Bendelow 18 was not a possibility!).

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2006/7/18/hs-colt-dream-18.html

[Jeff_Mingay]

Geoff,

I've enjoyed the "Dream 18s". Great idea.

Another excellent map by Gil, too. Beautiful. Glad you're able to post it at your web site. And, I look forward to seeing the others up there in short time.