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Chris Burgard

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Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« on: July 14, 2006, 05:08:34 PM »
As I started a topic on Tom's worst holes and opened the floor to being critical of Tom's work, it is only fair to offer our opinions on which holes on his courses that we like best and why.

I enjoyed most holes at both Apache Stronghold and Black Forest so will need some time to come up with which ones I liked best.

Will post later.

Cheers!
Chris

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2006, 05:15:27 PM »
Chris - very fair of you.

And this is a hell of a lot easier.  Again, just from the two I've played - Pacific Dunes and Stone Eagle - and trying to keep this to just the BEST, I'd nominate:

PD:  2, 4, 6, 7, 13, 16.
Why?  Each of these is freakin' brilliant.  But they've been discussed to death.  Most people here know the course really well, hell people are likely to nominate other holes besides these.

Stone Eagle:  6, 18, 7 from the create your own tee below 6.
6 - love the look, love the choices on the tee shot, love how a simple uphill pitch manages to kick your ass.
18 - Heroic with a capital H.  Just vast and tough and cool and a great finisher.
7 from the fake tee - would be one of the world's great par 3.5 holes.  Funny thing is I'm not enamored with the hole as it's played now... oh it's not bad or anything, but it's not great.. but play it as a 270 or so yard hole, from this tee, and the bunker short becomes a central fairway bunker and allows for several distinct choices...

TH

Tom_Doak

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 05:25:11 PM »
I have actually been trying to get my own associates to help compile a list of our best holes so I can put it on our web site -- descriptions of whole courses tend to be too general to cite what makes them different.  But even my associates are like Tom H, picking too many and giving no reasons.

So, anyone responding to this thread, please limit yourselves to one hole and state why you really like it.  As Matt always says, thanks in advance!

Chris Burgard

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2006, 05:30:05 PM »

Tom D,

You beat me to the punch!

That is why I didn't start rhyming off holes at AS and Black Forest. I wanted to think about them and narrow the list to just a couple per course.

Apparently I will only be allowed 1 each...decisions, decisions, decisions!

Chris


Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2006, 05:30:12 PM »
You are a stern task-master, Tom.   ;D

I only failed to give reasons for the PD holes because they have rather been talked to death.  But OK, I want to go on record here... so....

One from each:

PD
#6 - dammit it's got to be one of the greatest short par fours on this planet. The tee shot looks simple, but then you see that fortress out there holding the green... and then realize that the green is only a sliver and the more you wuss out left with the tee shot, the harder that fortress will be to access and hold... but there's also trouble on the right, which of course also looks worse than it actually is, but a tee shot leaving a straight pitch in will never be easy... on top of that, get the right wind and/or have the requisite power, and driving the green becomes possible... but of course miss left into that massive pit of doom bunker and you are in big trouble... Then no matter where the tee shot leaves you - even straight in - the pitch is gonna be an ass-tightener... All in all, this is a hole where any score from 2 to 22 is possible, you could play it 1000 times and never decide on any one "best" way to do the tee shot, and god help me I do love it so.

Stone Eagle - ironically also #6.  Reasons already given.

Is that better, maestro?

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 05:31:21 PM by Tom Huckaby »

George Pazin

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 05:31:55 PM »
I've only played one Tom D design, The Rawls Course, and loved the whole course.

If pressed, I would probably choose the par 4 4th hole as my favorite, mostly due to the fairway contours and the green complex severity. We played in relatively heavy winds and someone drove it within about 20-30 yards of the green and walked away with bogey, I think.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Pitner

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 05:34:49 PM »
#3 at Pacific Dunes.  Among the reasons it's great is that you have options off the tee.  You can go left of the center bunker over the gorse or 45 degrees to the right.  Playing left is more risky (less fairway, potential gorse issues), but gives you a better opportunity to reach in two.  It works downwind as a potential 2-shotter and against the wind, when you probably have to play right and reaching is not an option.  With the deep bunkers long left and short right, the approach, from whatever distance, is a dangerous one.  I even love the little trail behind the green (does that go anywhere?).  I've hit it down that rabbit trail, straight out of Alice in Wonderland, and had a very tricky shot over the ridge, hoping like hell not to end up in that wicked front bunker.  

All in all, not a bad hole. :)

Sean Leary

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 05:38:29 PM »
Stonewall 6

Elevated tee shot  with a choice tocross a diagonal stream that is harder to carry the farther right you go.  Great rewrad if you carry the stream.  Green slopes severely from left to right, and you can use the sideslope to run the ball ao the green.

Pacific Dunes 6- My favorite short 4 on earth. Period. Brilliant, just brilliant hole. enough has been said on this one.

Ballyneal 7 -Another great short par 4, drivable but with the wicked E green. Easy to make 3 or 6.  Drive is very tough to get close, but laying back gives a tough approach, particularly into the prevailing wind.

Stone Eagle 6 -  I like Short Par 4's.

Edit I didnt see Huck's answers. I can't even be original I guess :'(
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 05:39:57 PM by Sean Leary »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 05:41:47 PM »
Sean - agreeing with me - be afraid.  Be very, very afraid.

But great call on the 6s.

 ;D ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 05:46:50 PM »
One of his best is #1 at Lost Dunes, primarily for its placement.  It says to you "get ready for something fun and very different" better than just about any first hole I've ever played.  If it was stuck somewhere in the middle of the round, it would just be a routine change of pace, but as the first hole, it's an eye opener that puts you on your toes to what's coming...

shivas - of course I've never been to Lost Dunes so I'll trust you on this... but man this is more evidence that you NEED to get your ass out to Bandon.  You just described #1 at Pacific Dunes.

 :'(

Michael Dugger

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2006, 06:10:12 PM »
I am going to vote for #9 at Pacific.  My reasoning is as follows:

Best tee shot on the golf course.....perhaps the entire complex.  

I have yet to make it to Scotland but I have to believe that the 9th tee shot best embodies the spirited nature of gawf.  As you march up to the tee from the 8th green you kinda wonder where you go next.  Surely we are not going to be asked to blast one over the wall of grass!!!

But yes, and to think that just any old drive will do is pure folly.  

Who cannot embrace a golf hole with two green options?  By virtue of their location, depending upon what green is in play, a different tee shot is required.  When playing to the lower green, one must flirt with the edge of the bunker complex on the left side of the grassy wall.  I have been in that bunker and it is no cup of tea.  

When playing to the upper green, one must drive it as far right as possible without loosing it too far right.  I've driven too far right, finding my ball down near the 6th tee.  This is a terrible place to be, you have no yardage to guide you and the green is blind.

It's all about the tee shot.  One can wax lyrical about strategic options until the cows come home, but this golf hole is flat out one of a kind.  It truly embodies the sporting nature of golf.  Each time I step to the tee I just melt.

Here are a couple of schmucks pondering what to do.....




   
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tim Pitner

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2006, 06:16:46 PM »
Michael,

Great description and photo of PD #9.  That is exactly what you think when you come upon #9.  Actually, the hole isn't one of my personal favorites, but the tee shot is spectacular.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2006, 06:19:17 PM »
Michael:

GREAT stuff and didn't someone say something about a picture equalling a certain number of words?  That is one great pic, even with the schmucks besmirching it.   ;D

And it's interesting re 9 - I wouldn't be surprised at all to see someone list it on the "worst Doak holes thread."  I might be crazy, but man I seem to recall people giving some serious rips at this hole and it's two greens.  I think it was Goodale wishing one or the other would just go away... But perhaps he, or someone else, will chime in.

Me?  It ought not to surprise you I love the hole and really dig either green to play to.  It's two different golf holes, each with their own qualities.  I prefer the lower green, only because that gives a bit more strategy to an otherwise plainly heroic tee shot - that is, bite off as much as you can chew to the left, with the possibilities of getting it REALLY far down the hillside with the properly blasted draw - but hell to the upper green its still a damn good golfhole and that green plays kinda skyline depending on where you leave the teeball so that's cool also.

Great golf hole and I was remiss not to include it in my initial laundry list.  Same goes for 3, as described by Tim P.

TH

Doug Wright

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2006, 06:20:10 PM »
I have actually been trying to get my own associates to help compile a list of our best holes so I can put it on our web site -- descriptions of whole courses tend to be too general to cite what makes them different.  But even my associates are like Tom H, picking too many and giving no reasons.

So, anyone responding to this thread, please limit yourselves to one hole and state why you really like it.  As Matt always says, thanks in advance!

Tom D,

One hole or one per course?

If it's one per course here goes (and then I'll pick the winner from this lot):

High Pointe: #13 Unbelieveable green and a solid par 4 to boot. An absolute must-see. Here's Ran's commentary from 1999:

13th hole, 430 yards: The single best green built in America in the past sixty years. A tremendous amount of thought and work went into the design of this green. The creative player can use the bold contours to help with the recovery shots around the green. Sometimes, the best way to get the ball close to the hole is to play almost 90 degrees away from the hole. If the green is firm, the back bunker is in play. Like a lot of Doak's greens, it warrants being played on numerous occasions to gain a full appreciation of the options available to the golfer.

Pacific Dunes: Gotta reluctantly  ::) agree with Sir Thomas of Huckaby here, #6. See his discussion above.

Apache Stronghold: The par 4 2d, which has brilliant angles on both the tee shot and second shot and a wonderful greensite tucked over a wash.

Ballyneal: The par 3 15th, a very strong one-shotter that plays into a beautiful natural bowl, described thusly by Ran:

15th hole, 235 yards; Thanks to the variety found within the four holes, the 15th completes the finest set of one shotters that Renaissance has designed in the United States. Similar with the bunker to the right of the 12th green, the bunkers cut from the dunes left and right of the 15th green are works of art as they evolve out of the dunes themselves – where nature ends and man’s hand begins is indiscernible, the very highest form of golf course architecture. Nonetheless, this hole is really about the ground game with the opportunity to bounce tee balls in from the left or right into this green which sits in a hollow. As the green runs from front to back and as the slopes that feed onto the green are pronounced toward the front, front hole locations will take members quite a bit of time to figure out how best to get near. Indeed, somedays the golfer might be trying to figure out a club on the tee that will land the ball a good 50 (!) yards short of the middle of this gigantic green and let the land do the rest.

Riverdale Dunes: The par 4 5th hole is really good, but the large rolypoly green is terrific, with what seems like 100 fun pin positions. Tom can correct me if I'm wrong but I think this was one of his first efforts, and it turned out really well.

And the winner is: High Pointe #13. Whatta hole, whatta green.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

David Sneddon

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2006, 06:33:30 PM »
I've only payed one of Tom's courses, Pac Dunes, but I don;t think there is any better place to start.

My favourite is #16.  It is one of *the* great short par 4's, IMHO.

The hole offers the golfer at least three different routes to the green:
Directly at it, bringing the Devil's Asshole in play, if short, or if long, the bunkers in back of the green.

Playing left of the green hoping to catch a decent lie in the heavily mounded and contoured fairway, with another bunker to catch a longer shot.

Short with a mid-iron off the tee leaving about 125 to the centre of the green.

When the wind is up, well, ... good luck no matter your choice.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Doug Wright

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2006, 06:40:44 PM »
I've only payed one of Tom's courses, Pac Dunes, but I don;t think there is any better place to start.

My favourite is #16.  It is one of *the* great short par 4's, IMHO.

The hole offers the golfer at least three different routes to the green:
Directly at it, bringing the Devil's Asshole in play, if short, or if long, the bunkers in back of the green.

Playing left of the green hoping to catch a decent lie in the heavily mounded and contoured fairway, with another bunker to catch a longer shot.

Short with a mid-iron off the tee leaving about 125 to the centre of the green.

When the wind is up, well, ... good luck no matter your choice.

Funny, this hole got "best" and "worst" almost simultaneously... :) :P
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Tom Huckaby

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 06:45:22 PM »
I noticed that also!

But that's kinda been the reaction over the years both inside and outside this forum.  Some love 16, some don't.  Ryan makes a good point re the divots... there are quite a few in the collection "bowls" and that does make it a crap shoot.  Personally I'm more with David Sneddon though, I really like the hole.  But when I was there last summer with 16 Santa Clara stalwarts, it was like this re 16:

6 love it
6 hate it
4 don't give a damn what any hole is like and base it on how they played it

TH

Tim Pitner

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2006, 06:58:06 PM »
I've only payed one of Tom's courses, Pac Dunes, but I don;t think there is any better place to start.

My favourite is #16.  It is one of *the* great short par 4's, IMHO.

The hole offers the golfer at least three different routes to the green:
Directly at it, bringing the Devil's Asshole in play, if short, or if long, the bunkers in back of the green.

Hold on, David.  The bunker on Bandon Dunes #15 is the Devil's Asshole.  New rule:  only one Devil's Asshole bunker per golf resort.  

David Sneddon

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2006, 08:35:51 PM »
I've only payed one of Tom's courses, Pac Dunes, but I don;t think there is any better place to start.

My favourite is #16.  It is one of *the* great short par 4's, IMHO.

The hole offers the golfer at least three different routes to the green:
Directly at it, bringing the Devil's Asshole in play, if short, or if long, the bunkers in back of the green.

Hold on, David.  The bunker on Bandon Dunes #15 is the Devil's Asshole.  New rule:  only one Devil's Asshole bunker per golf resort.  

I was referring to the "pit" at the right hand side approach to #16 green.  It was referred  as the aforementioned "D.A." by my playing companions.
Had no idea the bunker on #15 was similarly named.

But you are quite right, one Asshole on a golf course is enough. ;D ;D
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Matt_Ward

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2006, 08:36:58 PM »
I'll start w Pac Dunes -- the combo of #7 and #8 is first rate stuff. Sorry, I had to mention two holes -- not just one but great golf is not limited to what one hole is. The combo that Doak provides here makes my mouth water for a return visit.

At Stone Eagle I have to say two holes -- both long par-4's but equally well done even though both play downhill but are stubborn in giving away anything. The par-4 4th -- the hole where Stone Eagle quickly turns up the notch and the closing hole -- thus far the best closer among the new courses I have played this year. Brings you home in grand fashion.

I've played a few other Doak layouts and will opine when time allows.

David Sneddon

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2006, 08:39:49 PM »
Tom H and Doug:

I'm a sucker for short par 4's - just love them when they are done right.

We have a couple of really nice one's at our Donald Ross muni in Windsor - next time I'm there I'll take some pics and post them.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Bill_McBride

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2006, 08:52:13 PM »
#11 Pacific Dunes.  Great par 3, the green appears to be tiny only 145 yards away with that huge dune on the side and oblivion left, with only that tiny sliver of bunker in between the froghair and the cliff, not to mention the barranca in front!  :o  Depending on the wind it can be anything from 9 iron to 4 iron, which I hit the first time I played it into a stout 4 club wind.  My fellow competitors flinched and blew irons up over the dune into the gunch.  I somehow ripped the 4 iron to the left rear and very happily took my par.  The next day the wind shifted and moderated and it was a more routine 7 iron to a back pin.  I love that little hole.

#10 Apache Stronghold.  I loved that split fairway although it was a long carry for me to the far side.  If I were up there again, I would try the left side, although it looked like a sliver up there left of the arroyo.  But I could bogey if I missed that left fairway, while a bogey at best is in the cards for me if I fail to carry the arroyo with the tee ball to the far side.

#13 Stone Eagle.  That is the par 5, right?  I really enjoyed both the second shot and the approach.  The green really fooled me as I couldn't see the fall away right half of the green.  I played a nice safe second to maybe 80 yards short right and then hit a sand wedge which I thought was 'stuck,' right at the pin.  Imagine my horror  :o  when the ball suddenly appeared heading downhill rapidly!  The last time I was that shocked was when I inadvertently putted into the swale at #16 North Berwick!

Mike Benham

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2006, 08:54:27 PM »
As it is my only Doak (one of Ed Getka's favorite comments during our round at SE was was being "Doaked"), I will agree with SE #4.  Even though it may be on the long side, the line of play from the tee and the bounce on the fairway may leave you with a much shorter than expected approach shot.

I really like the way the green sits, with the fall off in the back and the ball kicking left on the front of the green, which is great for a front left hole location.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Walt Cutshall

Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2006, 08:56:39 PM »
PD #4: One of the coolest tee shots I've ever faced. What's it gonna be: Pacific Ocean or giant death bunker?  ;D The approach shot is a great challenge, because you really need to pay attention to where you put your ball relative to the pin. And the green is a wonderful challenge. I played this on two consecutive days: into the wind (driver, 4 iron, SW, putt) and with the prevailing wind (driver, SW, putt, putt). Just a great hole.

rjsimper

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Re:Tom Doak's Best Holes - Fillet Mignon
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2006, 08:57:55 PM »
Tom H and Doug:

I'm a sucker for short par 4's - just love them when they are done right.

We have a couple of really nice one's at our Donald Ross muni in Windsor - next time I'm there I'll take some pics and post them.

I too am a sucker for a good short par 4 - problem is, I just don't think 16 is one of em...I'm with the crowd on 6, though - now THAT's a short par 4