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Tom Doak's Worst Holes - Barbeque the "Sacred Cow"
Mike_Cirba:
Given Tom's very high batting average, the few holes I've played by him that I thought were unsatisfactory are pretty easy to name.
For instance, back about 6 years ago here I outlined why I think the 5th at Stonewall Old is a poor, overly penal hole (blind with no bailout and death all around), and I don't get the 17th at all, where you walk about 50 yards just to play a shortish par three without much distinction. I also think the par three second at Beechtree is just a basic garden variety, Trent Jonesian, water-laden par three that isn't particularly clever or original, I think the par five 18th at Stonewall New is sort of a goofy, intersecting hazards, "get it back to the clubhouse" kind of hole on the worst part of the property, and if pushed to name my least favorite hole at PD, I'm not particularly enthralled with the 10th, which while making a nice poster, particularly from the higher tee, seems more an effort to get back to the water for the next couple of stunners.
Tom_Doak:
Mike C: An interesting story about how the 17th at Stonewall came to be.
Originally, I was going to make the hole 220 yards with the tee right beside #16 green, so that the finishing three holes would be tough as nails. But those were the last holes we built, and by the time we got there, the partners told me that I was forbidden to build the hole that long because there would be a safety conflict with the back tee on #11. [I think they were really concerned the finish would be TOO hard, and were looking for another reason to change it, but I was never sure.]
Anyway, we thought about playing the hole at about 180 yards, but the angle toward the drop-off was awkward and there was a lot of rock which would have to be excavated between tee and green, so I opted for the short 17th instead. I always thought it would be perceived as a disappointing and weak hole, but over the years a lot of people (members and my guests both) have told me they really like it, because it is the only place to catch a breath over the final six holes.
Philippe Binette:
I've played Stonewall, both courses, High Pointe, seen and worked on Barnbougle Dunes...
worst hole and still it could be considered a nice hole for a lot of designers:
13th at Stonewall North... 230 yards par 3 with a lake all along to the right and a green surrounded by bunkers.
because of the length, no place to run it on the green and the hazard right, there's no real shot option on the hole, mostly unplayable for the average guy... not enough make or break effect to be trilling... and I didn't see a technical reason that could have stop Tom for building something else... that's the point of it, sometimes there's weaker hole because it would be hard (technically, financially, or for tiing it in)to make it better... this hole is weak because it had potential to be better.
Andy Doyle:
--- Quote from: Mike Cirba on July 15, 2006, 11:53:36 AM ---... I also think the par three second at Beechtree is just a basic garden variety, Trent Jonesian, water-laden par three that isn't particularly clever or original ....
--- End quote ---
Beechtree is the only Doak course I've played, and #2 is the hole that immediately came to mind for this thread. It seemed like your basic irrigation pond par 3, out of character with the rest of the course.
Andy
Andy Doyle:
--- Quote from: Cory Lewis on July 14, 2006, 06:16:33 PM ---... If there was one hole at Beechtree that I heard the most complaining about while I was there, it was the 8th hole. ...
--- End quote ---
In contrast, I liked the 8th - particularly the shots it requires which seem to be somewhat opposite of the par 5 that immediately precedes it. The 7th was a pretty straightforward tee shot with an easy layup if you stayed short of the central bunker. The difficulty came with the approach the the green which had a lot of contours (I hit a sloppy wedge to the wrong part of the green and 3 putted).
You then immediately go to the next par five which requires a long, uphill tee shot and a long, difficult second shot. If you can accomplish those (which I didn't), you are left with a pretty straightforward approach shot to a green that I don't recall being as contoured as #7.
I thought the different demands of the par 5's were interesting and noticeable since they are played back to back.
Andy
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