[W.H. Cosgrove]

The only reason for #2 at Tumble Creek is a path to get to #3.  Slightly downhill par three presents none of the visual challenge of the preceding hole nor the visual beauty of the following holes.  

Not every hole can be a winner!

[Adam Clayman]

Doug Wright, Not to belabor the issue but #9 does have some intersting moods. Mostly wind dependant. But, just for what's on the ground, the pinch point is interesting, and the somewhat mundane look, up the fairwy to that pinch point, lulls the golfer into thinking trouble isn't an issue. Of course thats right when  trouble walks in the room. The green site has some real character to her. From the huge hump visually blocking the greenfront right, I keep fearing going down into the right side valley, but have yet to find her. Also, The back left, just left of the back bunker, has a rather steep slope to it, which I've seen used as an effective kickplate.

Originally #9 at Ballyneal struck me as a breather hole. Not a breather in terms of score, just a breather in terms of following the visual overload that 7 and 8 exude.

[Tim Bert]

The first time I visited Pacific Dunes, #8 was my least favorite hole, but I just didn't get it.  I liked it a lot more the second visit.  I had a pretty similar experience with #16.  Just about every hole got better on my second visit.

The two holes I enjoyed the least the last time around were #9 and #18.

As I stated on the "best" thread, I've only played the course in the prevailing summer wind (ranging between very mild to whipping, but generally the same direction.)  I've played the lower green on #9 more frequently than the upper green.  By all accounts, I should love this hole in these conditions.  I play a left-handed fade (sometimes slice) off the tee and the angled fairway plays right into my hands.  The hole is actually more difficult for me to the upper green, but I enjoy that version of the hole more.  The lower green has always been a "bomb the crap out of it and then see how close you can get your half-wedge or chip to the hole" kind of hole for me.  That's fun, but the upper green really makes me think harder about what I want to accomplish with the tee shot.  I'm probably also biased because I enjoy the upper tee on #10 (I'm probably in the minority there) and the upper green is usually connected with the upper tee.

The first time we visited, the green tee for #18 was up on the elevated box back by the tips, and I thought this hole worked much better from back there.  During the second visit, the green tee was pushed up and playing from lower ground, probably the yellow tee area.  This location gave me fits throughout the week.  I wasn't comfortable hitting driver from this spot, but my shorter options off the tee still brought most of the trouble into play.  Our group was running the ball through the fairway into the junk with 3 and 7 wood.  From the back tee, I could play a shorter club and leave myself longer second and third shots, or I could break out the driver and challenge the trouble in the narrower part of the fairway.

Ballyneal - #9.  I've already listed my comments on the Ballyneal thread, and others have already chimed in on this hole as well, so I won't pile on.  As Tom said on the other thread, this hole defended par quite nicely.  I just thought there were many more interesting holes on the course.

[Ryan Crago]

though i've only played one Doak creation (PD probably 5 times?), i'm going to go maybe on a bit of a limb here and say that i thought the weakest hole there was the 9th to the upper green.

perhaps because i like the lower green SO much better... and no doubt part of it has to do with the lower tee on 10, which i think is better than the upper.

[Tim Bert]

Ryan, you and I will be playing on alternate days!  I love the timing.

[Mark_F]

Worst holes compared to what?

It would seem a little pointless to BBQ newer courses.  Surely they are still marinating, and Doak and Co. will season some of them differently in the next few years?

Even 8 at Barnbougle and 13 at St Andrews Beach are only bad holes if you don't like Lentil Burgers.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Chris,
 Don't worry, I'll hunt you down like the dog you are and find you! Nomater if it means crossing an ocean or two!

As far as Mr. Doak's Famous BBQ Dead Duck (the 10th at Apache Stronghold) I'll say that I think it is a severely misunderstood hole by many.

I also think it's exceptional, just like the other 17 holes that compliment it. From the serpintine bunker that leads up the middle creating all kinds of defined avenues of play, it was interesting to see how that hole made me want to try a different route everytime. I felt an instant infinity to this golf hole all the way to the reverse punch bowl green. I have yet to see another green in golf that is similar to it, but that's whe you get when your at Apache Stronghold, warts and all.

So, is it a sacred cow?

I can only hope so!

By far, and I haven't seen the hole grassed or remotely close to finish, his Worst BBQ'ed Sacred Cow is #8 at Seboneck. But all of you knew that going in!
 

[Kevin Pallier]

After posting on what I view are his best holes - here are what I percieve to be Doaks's lesser holes.

St. Andrews Beach:
P4 13th - the drop off to the left on the drive is too penal IMO especially on such a long P4.
P4 15th - lacks any real definition. Is bunkerless and certainly lacks character - I got the impression it was 'just a hole' to get one to the tee at 16. Compared to the quality of the rest of the course the hole is a disappointment.

Barnbougle Dunes:
The lack of any strong P5's are the only critisisms I could make on a great course but not to an extent that they detract too much from it's overall appeal.

[Matt_Sullivan]

18 at Barnbougle

Have recorded my thoughts here before on this hole. Long, into the prevailing wind, blind drive up a pretty steep hill. Green is nice but not good enough to make up for what is a disappointing finish, particularly after the thrills and spills of 15 and 17

[Anthony Butler]

Heathland in Myrtle Beach:

Both 15 & 16.

Either into the wind or against it 15 is an infuriating hole (and not in a good way). You can attempt to drive the hole with the wind, but Tom has conveniently forgotten to provide any spot where a ball any more than 3yds offline can finish where you're not screwed. If you lay up and pitch up the hill the wind will either balloon your ball or send it through the back. It seems as though Tom was attempting to build a hole that held a similar challenge to something else he had seen–on terrain that can't support that level of visual and strategic intrigue. (Initial thought: something like the 14th at NSWGC and a hole NLGA that I saw once but forget the number.)

After playing 15, the split fairway on 16 just comes across as a hole designed by a guy that's trying too hard to make life difficult for your average golfer. It's 460yds from the tips, surely you shouldn't have to hit half a fairway just to guarantee yourself a 200yd approach shot? If Tom had just angled the line of the fairway a little more to the left there would be a full fairway all the way down to the 170yd marker and the drive would represent an effect risk/reward shot.

 A pity because I liked the rest of the course... it probably one of the toughest and longest 6700 yds courses I've played.

[Mike_Cirba]

Given Tom's very high batting average, the few holes I've played by him that I thought were unsatisfactory are pretty easy to name.

For instance, back about 6 years ago here I outlined why I think the 5th at Stonewall Old is a poor, overly penal hole (blind with no bailout and death all around), and I don't get the 17th at all, where you walk about 50 yards just to play a shortish par three without much distinction.   I also think the par three second at Beechtree is just a basic garden variety, Trent Jonesian, water-laden par three that isn't particularly clever or original, I think the par five 18th at Stonewall New is sort of a goofy, intersecting hazards, "get it back to the clubhouse" kind of hole on the worst part of the property, and if pushed to name my least favorite hole at PD, I'm not particularly enthralled with the 10th, which while making a nice poster, particularly from the higher tee, seems more an effort to get back to the water for the next couple of stunners.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike C:  An interesting story about how the 17th at Stonewall came to be.

Originally, I was going to make the hole 220 yards with the tee right beside #16 green, so that the finishing three holes would be tough as nails.  But those were the last holes we built, and by the time we got there, the partners told me that I was forbidden to build the hole that long because there would be a safety conflict with the back tee on #11.  [I think they were really concerned the finish would be TOO hard, and were looking for another reason to change it, but I was never sure.]

Anyway, we thought about playing the hole at about 180 yards, but the angle toward the drop-off was awkward and there was a lot of rock which would have to be excavated between tee and green, so I opted for the short 17th instead.  I always thought it would be perceived as a disappointing and weak hole, but over the years a lot of people (members and my guests both) have told me they really like it, because it is the only place to catch a breath over the final six holes.

[Philippe Binette]

I've played Stonewall, both courses, High Pointe, seen and worked on Barnbougle Dunes...

worst hole and still it could be considered a nice hole for a lot of designers:  
13th at Stonewall North... 230 yards par 3 with a lake all along to the right and a green surrounded by bunkers.

because of the length, no place to run it on the green and the hazard right, there's no real shot option on the hole, mostly unplayable for the average guy... not enough make or break effect to be trilling... and I didn't see a technical reason that could have stop Tom for building something else... that's the point of it, sometimes there's weaker hole because it would be hard (technically, financially, or for tiing it in)to make it better... this hole is weak because it had potential to be better.
 

[Andy Doyle]

... I also think the par three second at Beechtree is just a basic garden variety, Trent Jonesian, water-laden par three that isn't particularly clever or original ....

Beechtree is the only Doak course I've played, and #2 is the hole that immediately came to mind for this thread.  It seemed like your basic irrigation pond par 3, out of character with the rest of the course.

Andy

[Andy Doyle]

... If there was one hole at Beechtree that I heard the most complaining about while I was there, it was the 8th hole. ...

In contrast, I liked the 8th - particularly the shots it requires which seem to be somewhat opposite of the par 5 that immediately precedes it.  The 7th was a pretty straightforward tee shot with an easy layup if you stayed short of the central bunker.  The difficulty came with the approach the the green which had a lot of contours (I hit a sloppy wedge to the wrong part of the green and 3 putted).  

You then immediately go to the next par five which requires a long, uphill tee shot and a long, difficult second shot.  If you can accomplish those (which I didn't), you are left with a pretty straightforward approach shot to a green that I don't recall being as contoured as #7.

I thought the different demands of the par 5's were interesting and noticeable since they are played back to back.

Andy

[Mike_Cirba]

If there was one hole at Beechtree that I heard the most complaining about while I was there, it was the 8th hole. Long uphill par 5.   The positioning of the bunkers both in front of and behind the road made it a very awkward layup for the average player and caused numerous problems with trying to pitch out of the bunkers because of there severity.  If one tries to layup right of the bunkers, the fairway is slanted so that most balls run into the rough.  

Cory,

That's exactly why the 8th hole at Beechtree is my favorite on that course!  

Unless the second shot at least tries to challenge the intersecting fairway bunkers, a scared shot off to the right will flow further in that direction, to the point where the 3rd becomes a blind shot to a shallow green that borrows a bit from the 14th at the Old Course.  It's a nice, subtle touch that the "safe" play is anything but, and only sets the player up for having to pull off a great third.  

[Ryan Crago]

Tim,

I have little doubt that our disagreement is rooted in you standing on the wrong side of the ball.

[Mark_F]

St. Andrews Beach:
P4 13th - the drop off to the left on the drive is too penal IMO especially on such a long P4.

Kevin,

How is the drop off to the left too penal when you have to hit a solid snap hook to find it?

It's no more penal than the left side of 3rd at National Old, or the chute you have to drive between on the 2nd at National Old.

[Jonathan Cummings]

gets my nod as the hole I'd least like to see repeated - it's a complete crapshoot as to whether or not you'll be hitting out of a divot, and that pretty much makes or breaks your hole,

I have never heard anything so silly in my life.  A player getting into a divot is the architect's fault!  

[John_McMillan]

High Pointe: I'm not crazy about the first par 3 (#6), seemed very straightforward compared to everything else Tom's done. And then there's #18.

Hole #6 at High Pointe is a downhill par-5.  Someday, technology may turn that into a par-3, but we're at least 4 or 5 years away from that happening.

The only par-3 on the front-side is #4, which is Tom's copy of the Redan hole.  I'm not sure why this hole would make a list of Tom's worst, since he did a pretty good job of replicating the original.

[Jay Flemma]

Yeah, my first instinct was also 2 at Beechtree...it wasn't really Tom's fault - he needed that water and the water on 7 to irrigate the course.

I remember taking Nancy there for her second ever round of golf.  We get to the tee box and I chunk it into the water...she's grinning trying to supress a laugh...I just said "stop laughing and throw me another ball."

I rather like 8.  Nice view back to the tee box from the fwy and a good stiff three-shotter for us mere mortals.

[John_McMillan]

gets my nod as the hole I'd least like to see repeated - it's a complete crapshoot as to whether or not you'll be hitting out of a divot, and that pretty much makes or breaks your hole,

I have never heard anything so silly in my life.  A player getting into a divot is the architect's fault!  

In many cases, it can be the architect's fault.  I played the Lochenheath a couple years ago, and the 18th hole has a very severely sloped green and entrance.  It requires a very accurately judged approach, or else the ball will trickle back to the bottom of a hill.  The slopes work so that short approaches collect in a very small area (about the size of a welcome mat), and there is a mass of divots in that area from those whose approach came up short and played their pitch to the green from the collection area.

[Jonathan Cummings]

John - wanna bet that the architect at Lochenheath never designed or intended that concentrated low point to be part of the hole?  Concentarted collection areas occur in golf as the result of mis-guided shapers, engineering constraints, and evolution of hole (natural erosion and man-made maintenance), but I simply can't imagine an architect designing one.

JC

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:  The architect still has to take the blame for the collection area at Lochenheath which John brought up.  When you build an approach where everything for fifty yards short of the green is going to roll backward, you'd better be thinking about where the balls are going to wind up.

The rest of you:  Keep them coming.  I'm taking notes and will draw some conclusions in about another fifty posts!

[Ari Techner]

I would have to say #18 at The Rawls.  (Ive played PD, Rawls and Apache)  Seemed like more of your typical water laden par 5 finishing hole with not too much going on other than the water(after a really good par 5 17th hole) and I really hated the big gaudy Texas Tech bridge although I know thats not Toms fault.

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