Buggies

[Jeff_Lewis]

I had the most delightful afternoon last week, playing the magical Swinley Forest for the first time. Five par 3s, 6000 yards and all of it fun, fun, fun. Alas, I was roused from my reverie while sitting a table outside overlooking the last, enjoying a pint. There, coming up the hill, was a GOLF CART. Suddenly I realized that unfortunately, it is 2003 and not 1903.

How much damage have carts done to the enjoyment of the game and to architecture?

[JakaB]

More than you have ever imagined....they allow unskilled golfers the opportunity to play which has in turn created the "18 greens and four goats" mentality which is slowly destroying the value of a tee shot.   Used to be a cats game to play spray and chase....now its the mantra of the modern revisionist architectural scholar.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff Lewis:

Your story is sad, but I can't help but attribute it in part to American influence. We are slowly giving folks across the pond the idea that carts are okay.

Back here in the States I can't tell you how many times I've seen a foursome with two guys 50 ish and two teenagers. It is almost always the teenagers riding the carts and the older gentlemen walking.

One day I did my best to be a grumpy old man and yell at one of these teenagers "What are you doing in a cart?"

The kid immediately shot back "Casey Martin does it"!

I muttered  few more words and gave up. It was hopeless.

JakaB seems to think that carts have been slowly destroying the value of the tee shot. I don't get that. Carts are slowly destroying the entire game.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tim,

Shoot back with "so you're physically handicapped with a bum leg that might need to be amputated soon, too?"


On a side note:  A ray of hope has touched my club here in NC.  Due partly (probably mostly) to a less-than-stellar financial situation of my semi-private club, the club seems to be more willing not to anger anyone with strict rules.  The result?  They seem to have relaxed, almost gotten rid of the mandatory carts rule before 2:00 on weekends.

I joined up with one guy walking late in his round around 2:00 a few weeks ago, and asked if he'd been walking the whole round.  He said he'd tee off just before noon and that no one said anything to him about having to take a cart.  This past weeked, I noticed 3 guys (father and two sons) carrying on the 9th hole around 12:15-12:30, having started probably around 10:30.  I ended joining up with the same guy from the first time and he believes that they don't want to piss off anyone.  I said to him and firmly believe that if they simply had no mandatory cart rules, most would ride any ways, and those who want to walk can have more freedom in when they play.

Hooray for my club, sort of.  I just hope that if, for whatever reason, the club does better financially that they won't go back to the old way and see that the way it is now keeps more people happy.  It's been proven by the NGF that walking and riding has virtually no difference in pace of play of a foursome (it was 4 minutes difference over 18 holes).

[Joel_Stewart]

I played Cypress Point a year or two ago and was passed by a man that was handicapped and needed a cart.  

Jeff:
Its my understanding that a member at Swinley that is handicapped with a doctors letter is allowed a cart.  It is also my understanding that Swinley only has 2 carts for handicaped members (guests are not allowed at any time to use carts) so lets not give up the game for a few handicapped golfers.  On the reverse side, maybe we should give them some credit.

[Jeff_Lewis]

It was not my intention to single out Swinley for a decline into modernity. They told me they have seven and have no intention of increasing that number.

I was hoping to prompt a general discussion about the pernicious effect of buggies on design. I, for one, cannot stand courses that are only suitable for cart ball.

[Jeff Goldman]

Joel,

The diabetics in the treehouse with flat feet thank you.  We even try to walk occasionally - twice at Whistling Straits last year -but it's just not a good idea generally.  We wouldn't think of taking a cart on a walking course (well, this one wouldn't) because that's not in the spirit of the game there, but appreciate the ability to play many of the great courses.

Jeff Goldman  

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The only way my father could enjoy the game after breaking his leg very badly was to ride.  I still couldn't beat him

The otherside of the coin is the advent of the three wheel cart.  Players who have been riding carts for years at my club are getting up and walking.  Hooray to Sun Mountain for designing a better mousetrap.

We now have over 60 of the three wheelers in use.  The fairways look better and compaction has to be improved.  We have had to begin to educate players on where to walk around greens because traffic is so heavy we are beginning to wear some paths.  

But a big improvement over cart ball!

[Joel_Stewart]

I was hoping to prompt a general discussion about the pernicious effect of buggies on design. I, for one, cannot stand courses that are only suitable for cart ball.

Jeff:
I figured as much. I know this web site has had a few discussions regarding buggies and paths on both the design of new courses and the utter disfigurement of classic courses.  My home course (Olympic) is still trying to route and re-route cart paths and it is an outrage the number of able body members that still want to ride.

On a positive note I believe over the last few years you are seeing a trend in new courses that are walking only.  Courses such as,

Bandon & Pacific Dunes
Memorial (in hot Tampa)
Sand Hills
Friars Head
Mayacama (which is a Nicklaus course)
I'm sure I have left out quite a few but hopefully the trend is coming back.

[Paul_Turner]

Bloody hell!  First Swinley succumbs to par, then they start fiddling with their course and now they have buggies!  What next?  A monthly medal?  A member under 35?

[ForkaB]

Paul

Q.  What do you call a Swinley member under age 35?

A.  "Your Royal Highness."

[Dan Herrmann]

It was not my intention to single out Swinley for a decline into modernity. They told me they have seven and have no intention of increasing that number.

I was hoping to prompt a general discussion about the pernicious effect of buggies on design. I, for one, cannot stand courses that are only suitable for cart ball.

Jeff - the worst example I've ever seen of cart ball is Rees Jones' Tattersall in Pennsylvania.  Examples - It's 3/4 mile from the 18th green to the clubhouse, the par 3 10th hole requires you to pass the green to get to the tee, the "walk" from most greens to tees is very long, and many holes don't even have a walkable way to get from the tee to the fairway (it's all switchbacks due to the hilly terrain).

Ughh!

[Mike Hendren]

Your story is sad, but I can't help but attribute it in part to American influence. We are slowly giving folks across the pond the idea that carts are okay.

I find it laughable that we Americans think we carry so much clout that we influence the game at its roots in its home.  Then again, when was the last time participants played the small ball in The Open?

Frankly, if Swinley Forest or any of its neighbors permit the mass use of carts, it's their own damn fault.

For what it's worth, at the age of 45 with way  too much weight on the knees, I expect to abandon my walking-only mentality this summer when the temps and humidity both exceed ninety here in the South.  

Regards,

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Without the cart revenues most of these modern business ventures probably couldn't of happened. Or at least in the way they have happened, on sites that would never have been considered without the buggy. That would've caused a greater demand on the exisiting older courses. Which would have everyone struggleing to get a tee time.

So, damage to the architecture is a tough pill to swallow because in the spirit of the game; I'd rather be riding in a cart than in an office somewhere.  

[Jim_H]

It might be better as a separate thread, but to me the worst part of carts as related to architecture is the poor job most designers do with the layout of cart paths.  They are often an eyestore, infringe on the play and are not thought out as an element of design.
If we have to have carts, can there be more work on carts that are not hard surfaced and can be part of play--no drop?  Or can architects at least give more thought to the location and appearance of cart paths?

[Gene Greco]

FYI:

     Sand Hills is NOT walking only.

Carts are allowed at anytime.

[THuckaby2]

Gene - what's the percentage of walking/riding there?  I sure don't remember seeing many riders... but they do have paths - which are dirt and are very unobtrusive, right?

TH

[Jim_H]

The distance from the clubhouse to the first tee alone makes a cart nearly necessary.  When I was there all groups on the course had carts.  Too bad!

[THuckaby2]

Jim - sure, we took carts from clubhouse to range and then to first tee - oh yes, that's just common sense - but I don't remember nearly anyone using them for play... it's not a bad walk at all, in fact the walk adds to the experience.. heck, if it means playing period, then by all means take a cart - I have no problem with that - I just remain curious at the percentage of cart and walking.  I was there in June 2002 and unless my memory is really bad as I say I don't remember many riders.  When were you there?  I ask only to see if this is a recent change, if I am just full of it, or whatever.  

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jim,

The carts are necessary to GET to the first tee and back from 18 green.  I believe the intent is for carts to shuttle players to and from 1 tee/ 18 green and back and walk the course.  Kinloch in VA has the same intent, as a cart shuttles players from 9 green to 10 tee and back from 18 green.  Also done at Kiawah-Ocean now that they have caddies (walking and carrying is also perfectly acceptble).

[Matt Dupre]

Redanman,

Your frustrations with the cart/caddy situation at Lehigh are the same that I experienced at RG.  Over the winter I proposed a compromise to the board, and they accepted - if no caddies are available during "prime" hours and a member and/or guest would rather walk than take a cart, they may carry their own and pay a trail fee.  The board worked the trail fee to be 75% of the cart fee.

They really couldn't argue, because the revenue issue was taken care of, there's an argument that less cart traffic is better for overall course conditions, and no one can make an argument over walking with a straight face.

E-mail me if you'd like a copy of the letter that I sent to the board.

Matt

[Jim_H]

Tom--
I was there very early--the summer after the first year it opened.  It was very, very hot--which may have affected the number of riders.  And maybe the caddy program was not very developed.  Our caddies were young ranch girls, who forecaddied only.  Hopefully, it has changed since then.

[A_Clay_Man]

I would find a young little ranch girl much more distracting than any buggy.

[THuckaby2]

Jim:

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.  I can say the caddie program was fully developed by the time I got there - anyone who wanted a caddie got one, and they were fine.

I can see if it gets really hot a cart being a very viable option - no hassles there.  Heat was also not a problem when I was there, so maybe my take is also skewed by that.

TH