Cabin Bluff and Davis Love III

[Doug Wright]

In yesterday's AOTD regarding Ocean Forest at Sea Island, Ga., SPDB mentioned that one of Davis Love III's top 5 courses (with Seminole, Pebble, Winged Foot, and Ocean Forest) is a course called Cabin Bluff, also at Sea Island. I hadn't heard of Cabin Bluff, and it seemed to be in pretty good company, so I looked it up. DL III did this course, which is also at Sea Island where he's a resident, so I'm sure there's some home-cooking in DL III's listing it as a favourite. However, from the website description it also sounds quite intriguing and unique. It's a 6000 yard par 72 course with only 6 fairways and "large triple greens"! Anybody seen this, and whaddya think?

Also, as I recall there were some favourable comments about some of Davis's other work. Is he a Tour guy who actually "gets it?"

All The Best,  

  

[Keith Williams]

Doug,

After reading yesterday's AOTD I was also intrigued by the mention of Cabin Bluff.  Like you I checked up on it through Sea Island's website.  Cabin Bluff actually is not located on Sea Island.  It is south of Sea Island nearer to St. Mary's, Kings Bay Naval Submarine base and Crooked River State Park.

I did a little navigating on Terraserver and found the course.  It looks really interesting and nifty from the air.

As to Davis' regard as a golf course architect, I have heard similar comments.  It appears that unlike most Tour architects, Davis and his brother Mark pay deep attention to the greens and green surrounds and how they affect the play and strategy of the hole.  That alone puts them ahead of most pro player/archies.

Keith.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I was also intrigued by the name Cabin Bluff I'd never heard of.

I played my first DLIII design last month, Anderson Creek near Fayetteville, NC, as it had received good reviews from a few here.  It was worthy of it's praise, with Love-fave chipping areas around greens, fairway bunkers 30 or so yards short of green providing visual trickery, run-up opportunities abound, Pinehurst-like waste areas....

Someone from DLIII's design firm posted here in the past.

[TEPaul]

I've never heard of Cabin Bluff but I've always thought highly of Davis Love as a player and as a man. It's an odd thing about Love that he appears to have sort of a grumpy look to him when in reality he's one of the nicest and most easy going people I've ever met! Spent about five solid days with him when he came to stay before turning pro!

I'm aware that there were some comments on this website a few years ago that Love may not have a clue about architecture but I'm not so sure.

There's a public course around St Mary's Ga. by Love that I've played a few times although the name of it escapes me at the moment!

I like the course a lot both for the golf (and the strategy) but particularly for the look of it!

It's out amongst the coastal "salt marshes" which are one and the same as Love's home in Sea Island.

Love is also a very avid and lifelong fisherman in the coastal marshes and I have a feeling he must have a real apprectiation for and sense of the "lines" and the natural look of that extremely beautiful area. I thought his golf course there showed that!

I loved the look of the course! It was very minimalist, almost no mid hole shaping and the rest flowed really well with the natural aura and land!

I asked the club about Love and they told me it was one of his first but that his brother Mark was the one who really spent the time on the course although Davis had a good deal to do with it!

It was the kind of course and setting that would seem very much to be enhanced by the fact it was out in that salt marsh wilderness by itself but I fear they now might have built houses around it! I'd be sorry to see that, I think!

[Keith Williams]

Tom Paul,

I believe you are speaking about Laurel Island Links, one of Davis' first courses.  That course is actually situated relatively close to Cabin Bluff.

Keith.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I had the chance to work for a short time in their office, before going to Scotland so my opinion may be deemed bias.  I would definitely have to say that they are not your typical player design team.  Davis is very involved along with his brother, Mark and their design team.

Alot is said on here about C&C, and it would be unfair to say they are the next C&C, since C&C have been at the design board alot longer.  Although, they are taking the same path and you can't blame them for wanting to, since the industry is full of tour players wanting to just turn a dime.

They have a great desire to work with the land and they have a great belief in quality and not quantity....similar to C&C.  The Love Design team works in the field on a project from day one to the opening.  Thus limiting the number of projects taken and increasing the the quality of the product.

A conversation regarding favorite golf courses came up during the Open at Muirfield this year.  Mark and I were walking around the course and he spoke of courses like Shinnecock and Chicago Golf Club as inspiration for an upcoming golf course project.  Davis, Mark, and one of the design associates were planning to visit and play these courses prior to the commencement of the project.

IMHO they are approaching the business unlike many of the player/design teams.  They are selecting a few projects a year that allow them to be involved in everyday and every step of the design/construction of the project.

John MacKenzie posts on here and he can fill you in on Cabin Bluff and The Retreat renovation for Sea Island and other projects.  As for their greens, they are fun and exciting, taken from their trips abroad to Scotland and Ireland as well as the classics in the US.

[TEPaul]

RC Stanfield:

That's wonderful to hear and makes me glad I "assumed" the things I did about that team after seeing only a little of what they've done!

If accusations of "bias" are now right around the corner on here for saying this it won't surprise me at all!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Paging John MacKenzie....  

I would love to hear more about this, as I am down that way everyonce in a while?

Also do you know specifics about the course.  Is it some guys private enclave or is it something that you can get on to play??

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Turboe,
I have only seen pictures of Cabin Bluff.  Its very private and they also use the location for shooting and supposedly if you stay there its totally private.  Meaning just you and your guests on the island/property.

Its owned, I think by the family that owns Sea Island Corp.  John can fill you in on more.  The pics are great and if you ever get a chance I think you should jump on going.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I assumed as much based on the description of it, but I hadnt seen anyone mention the private status.

Did someone say that there are pictures posted anywhere that we can look at?

[Joyce]

Has anybody played the Windemere(sp?) golf course?  Its in Atlanta.  Somebody was talking about them working at Callaway, when I was at the tournament this week.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Windemere is an interesting place.  Not one that most purists would probably be very fond of, and not what I would call a great course, but it is good, and quite unique.

I drove this property when it was being graded, and I thought it looked like it could be one of the worst properties for a golf course that I have ever seen.  It was just so extreme in elevation changes and side hills, etc.  I could not imagine how the layout could work on some of the hills that I saw.  

Therefore I was not expecting alot when I got to play it a year later.  I was pleasently surprised about how well the playability of the holes themselves turned out.  Davis did a nice job with a tough piece of property.  The holes themselves play pretty well on the terrain, however it may be one of the most unwalkable courses that I have ever seen.  The walks between holes are not only far and hilly, some would be down right dangerous.  It has been a while since I was there, but I remember one hill with the cartpath snaking down the side of it, that I didnt feel safe even in a cart going down it.

They sure are putting up some big houses there!!  Although that is no endorsement of the quality of the golf course.  In Northern Atlanta if you have some green grass and holes you can sell real estate lots for pretty much whatever price you want.  It is like a licence to steal.

To summarize I would play Windemere again, it has some spectacular holes, but purists need not apply.

[J_McKenzie]

Doug:

Cabin Bluff is a hunting/fishing retreat that is part of the Sea Island Resort.  Information about Cabin Bluff can be found at www.cabinbluff.com.  It is a great place for corporate meetings or a group getaway.

The idea about adding golf there was driven by the need to provide year-round activities and also to give guests who don't hunt or fish something to do.  The original "short course" was a three hole loop consisting of three large greens (approximately 10-12,000 square feet), five fairways, and nine tees.  It could be played three times around for nine different holes totalling 3,200 yards with a par of 36.  Each green was shaped as three greens within one green and pinned with three flagsticks (red, white, blue).  The tee markers were also color-coded red, white, and blue. The color of the tee marker determines which flag you play for on the green.  

The original course was shaped on about 20 acres with no subsurface drainage, push-up greens and no bunkers.  Two water features were created to generate the dirt, one of which is out of play.  The course was so popular with the guests that we came back three years later and added three more holes so that now a six hole loop can be played three times for 18 different holes.  The second set of holes also included a few bunkers and a "creek" for strategy and challenge.  Love Enterprises designs very much as team, but special credit for Cabin Bluff should go to Paul Cowley from our staff for his unique design input on this project.

Tom Paul:

Glad to hear you enjoyed Laurel Island Links near St. Mary's.  This was our company's second course and was designed as a municipal course for the city of Kingsland, Ga.  Constructed for less than $2.5 million, it is truly one of the most playable courses in the region, yet hosted first stage of the PGA Tour's qualifying school last year where 1-under moved on.  It is located one exit south of Cabin Bluff.

Turboe:

I hope the above description of Cabin Bluff helps out, it is certainly a lot easier to decribe verbally than trying to write it out.  

Your comments regarding Windermere are exactly what we were hoping to hear from knowledeable people.  The first time we rode the property, our Vice President Bob Spence said that twenty years ago he wouldn't have believed a golf course could be built on that site.  But with today's technology, we were able to move the dirt necessary to build a fun, playable golf course, not just tees, fairways, and greens between a bunch of houses.  I know from reading posts on this site that many here may not find the course to their liking, but we did work hard to incorporate as much design strategy and as many traditional elements as possible on a very untraditional site.  I understand the course turned close to 40,000 rounds in its first year, so we must have done something right.  By the way, Windermere is the only course we have done where the cart path has switch-backs going up hill.  

Joyce:

We are under contract at Callaway Gardens to completely re-design the Gardens View Course for a new private club being developed called The Southern Pine Club.

Keith and Scott:

Thanks for the kind words.

John

    

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

John,

You are correct in that my Atlanta friends sure love to play there, and I have heard that it is doing lots of rounds.  So that is great.  I hope to get back again sometime soon as I said I played it very shortly after it opened and I would love to see how things have come along.  In fact a good friend of mine was very good friends with Shane Gardner who was the pro out there at the time. I understand he has since gone back to Kansas I think.

Anyway I will get back sometime soon.

I am having some trouble getting the Cabinbluff.com website to work I will have to try again later to see if it is just my computer or what.  Looking forward to reading more about it.

Thanks,
Daryl

ps please send me an email as I had another question that I was going to ask you.

[Greg Holland]

John,

Can you tell us anything about Love Enterprises' work at Forest Oaks in Greensboro, NC.  As I understand it, you are reworking the whole course, and any details would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Daryl,

Try this:

http://www.cabinbluff.com/Content/ContentCT.asp?P=23


Golf is under "Activities".

[GPazin]

...The original "short course" was a three hole loop consisting of three large greens (approximately 10-12,000 square feet), five fairways, and nine tees.  It could be played three times around for nine different holes totalling 3,200 yards with a par of 36.  Each green was shaped as three greens within one green and pinned with three flagsticks (red, white, blue).  The tee markers were also color-coded red, white, and blue. The color of the tee marker determines which flag you play for on the green.  

The original course was shaped on about 20 acres with no subsurface drainage, push-up greens and no bunkers.  Two water features were created to generate the dirt, one of which is out of play.  The course was so popular with the guests that we came back three years later and added three more holes so that now a six hole loop can be played three times for 18 different holes.  The second set of holes also included a few bunkers and a "creek" for strategy and challenge.  Love Enterprises designs very much as team, but special credit for Cabin Bluff should go to Paul Cowley from our staff for his unique design input on this project.

Is there any chance you could post a diagram or layout for this original short course? As each year passes and I realize I'm far short of where I had hoped to be at this point in my life, I have to adjust my dreams downward. They started off a full 18 hole course, dropped to a 9 holer, and lately I've been dreaming about something along the lines of what you've described. Cool to see that someone did it, or at least, planned to do it.

If it's proprietary or something, I'd understand, but I'd love to see something.

P.S. If anyone saw my current situation, they'd probably keel over laughing & figure (correctly) that I'm about the biggest dreamer alive...

[J_McKenzie]

GregH:

Our design goals at Forest Oaks are fairly straight forward: lengthen the course where possible by adding new tournament tees, evaluate the current bunker strategy and make the necessary adjustments to bring them back into play, re-contour several landing areas to improve playability and slow down the tee ball, and finally redesign all the greens and green surrounds to improve visibility from the fairway and add short game variety and shot options.  

The overall length of the course is being increased to just over 7300 yds, yet a few holes will actually be shortened to add risk/reward options.  A new irrigation system is being installed and the golf course will be regrassed with tifsport bermudagrass.  The greens will remain bentgrass.  We believe the biggest difference will be found in the redesign of the greens.  Lower profile greens with subtle contouring, combined with better bunkering and run-offs should put a premium on accuracy and a player's creativity in getting the ball up-and-down.

We are looking forward to the the opportunity of making Forest Oaks a good test for the world's best players one week out of the year while keeping it fun and playable for the members the other 51.  Construction is starting this week.

GPazin:

The only drawing I have of cabin Bluff is the original hand-drawing that is now hanging on a wall in our office.  I will see if there is something we can do.

John

 

[Doug Wright]

John,

Thanks much for your responses re Cabin Bluff. I share George's interest in more detail about exactly how you get the golfers around three times on the same six holes, which I think is what you're doing,

Also, re Forest Oaks I'm curious about your comment that you're going to "re-contour several landing areas to improve playability and slow down the tee ball..." What do you have in mind there? It sounds like you're going to build upslopes to keep balls from running but I suspect that's not what you're doing. If you could enlighten us heathens that would be great!

All The Best,  

[J_McKenzie]

Doug:

The reason the six hole loop works well for Cabin Bluff is that the cabins there only hold between 32-36 people at full occupancy.  There is a definite limitation to how many people can play the course at one time.

As far as re-contouring the landing areas at Forest Oaks, there are certain holes we can bunker to force longer players to take a different line of play than they are currently using and hopefully force them into a landing area that already has exisiting contours (upslope) that will slow down the drives.  We may look at enhancing these contours or extending them to be more in play.

John

[Doug Wright]

Thanks John. It's got to be a challenge to balance the needs of the TOUR and the members at someplace like Forest Oaks. When you look to make the changes in the fairways, bunkering, etc. I assume you look at them both from the perspective of the TOUR tees and the members tees? Who from the club gives you input on these, and do you also run your ideas past the TOUR?

All The Best,

[J_McKenzie]

Doug:

Whenever we are involved with a renovation, we look at the course from the perspective of every tee, including seniors and ladies tees which in many cases didn't exist when the course was originally designed.  Davis often says he thinks of course design, whether new or renovation, from his perspective and how his mom would play the course.  Davis and Mark's mother is a very good senior lady golfer, but she needs to be able to play the game along the ground (i.e.- limited forced carries and open approaches to greens due to lack of back spin).

At Forest Oaks, we have obviously gotten a lot of input from the owner, but we have also spent a good deal of time with the superintendent.  We have spoken the the golf professional and his staff because we know they are the ones that hear all of the comments, both good and bad.  We also attended a members meeting last week and got some very useful feedback.  The PGA Tour is not directly involved, but we have passed our ideas by them.  They are very helpful and they have offered their assistance with gallery traffic, agronomy questions, etc.

John

[Scott_Burroughs]

John,

Why is Forest Oaks lengthening the course for the GGCC when the GGCC will just be moving to the new JayCee course in a few years anyways?

[J_McKenzie]

Scott:

At this time, there isn't going to be a new Jaycees course.  With the current economy and demographics in Greensboro, it just didn't make business sense to try and build a new golf course.  We did an initial study of the proposed property, but in the end everyone felt we could make the necessary adjustments to Forest Oaks C.C.  

It wasn't all that long ago that the tour players really enjoyed playing Forest Oaks.  We hope it will be that way again.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Kind of ironic that I think I know quite a bit about golf in and around the Carolinas and GA.  Then this week I learn about Cabin Bluff through this DG.

Then lo and behold today I am reading through a copy of Gerogia Golfing Link magazine that I picked up at a course yesterday when I see a picture of Hole #3 at Cabin Bluff in a story on Love Enterprises.  And before reading through the first paragraph I see our very own John McKenzie quoted.  

Kind of twilight zone material that these events happen within a few days of each other.