[Glenn Spencer]

TH,

Oh, your sacred cow, that is different. I listed what I thought were THE sacred cows, I have not been around nearly long enough, although I was a pretty damn regular lurker for a long, long time. My personal? Crooked Stick is my cup of tea and always will be. 16 holes out there would never get old to me and the other 2 are just fine and without shennanigans. Nice and solid golf holes if not spectactular, I have no doubt that there are more agreeable courses out there for the masses, but I am just fine with Crooked Stick.

[Tom Huckaby]

I have nothing against personal sacred cows, so long as people have good humor when defending them.  I believe I do this with Sand Hills... or at least I try.

As for overall site sacred cows, I really don't think there are any, not universally.  Oh some come close - the ones Doak listed - but even those do tend to have their critics.  I take his point as more that if you do dare criticize one of those, prepare to take your lumps from several here who have those as personal sacred cows.

TH

[Mike_Sweeney]

The guy enjoys a good golf course and believes his to be so and likes to share on them, wake up, that is all it is.

Glenn,

I agree with everything you said until "that is all it is". . I think that Tom Doak is probably the King Of Golf Architecture Geeks in a den full of them. My guess is that Tom can't help himself, he really really loves this stuff. Even when he talks about his year in Scotland, it is golf and more golf. Were there no women or beer in Scotland that year?

However, as a result of the Confidential Guide, Tom's decision to NOT join the ASGCA, some early "disagreements" with developers, Tom has positioned himself as the outside insider. Again it may be savy or it may just be Tom's personality (the latter being my guess, I have not met Tom), but this website and his postings do nothing but confirm that position in the industy as this website is viewed in a similar manner.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tell me...has Tom Doak been asked to join ASGCA..

[Glenn Spencer]

The guy enjoys a good golf course and believes his to be so and likes to share on them, wake up, that is all it is.

Glenn,

I agree with everything you said until "that is all it is". . I think that Tom Doak is probably the King Of Golf Architecture Geeks in a den full of them. My guess is that Tom can't help himself, he really really loves this stuff. Even when he talks about his year in Scotland, it is golf and more golf. Were there no women or beer in Scotland that year?

However, as a result of the Confidential Guide, Tom's decision to NOT join the ASGCA, some early "disagreements" with developers, Tom has positioned himself as the outside insider. Again it may be savy or it may just be Tom's personality (the latter being my guess, I have not met Tom), but this website and his postings do nothing but confirm that position in the industy as this website is viewed in a similar manner.

Mike,

Just my poor way of wrapping up a rant, I guess. If I built or played for that matter, one of those courses, I would be shouting its praises and telling all my friends that they should try it and saying why it was good. Any other behavior, is just weird.

TH,

What were some of the knocks on Pasatiempo? Do you know any of the threads or anything? Thanks

[Tom Huckaby]

Glenn:  I listed several a page back.  To wit:

for years I've lamented that they keep the greens too fast for the contours... Dave M. and I had a great debate about #10 - he wanted the trees removed, I thought they made for a better tougher tee shot... Others have ripped the bunkering on 10 (Goodale for one, can't recall exactly who else but there were others)... Many have questioned the whys behind Doaks re-do of 11 green.... We've discussed the blandness overall of the par fives, which I believe Brad Klein pointed out in his review...

Others have definitely commented on the bunched-in nature of 6-7-8.  Some like 14 and call it a great hole (count me in there), others call it bland.  People critiqued the hell out of the renovation of the bunkers around 15.  Some like the renovated #1, some don't.  LOTS of people think the course is overtreed and could use a dose of chainsaw.

Is that enough?

If this is a sacred cow, then I'm Michael Jackson.

 

[Glenn Spencer]

Michael Jackson,

Thanks, that was plenty. I just wanted to see some. 6-7-8 are a little tight.

[Voytek Wilczak]

I think Tom D frequents and contributes to this site in order to stay sharp.

He wants to pick everyone's brain. No man is an island.

Everyone needs constructive feedback to grow. Everyone who is creative, that is.

If we want to keep TD here - give him what he asks for.

Tell him which holes are great and which are not-so-great. He'll be more grateful for such posts than the kiss-ass posts.

On that note, Tom - the 8th at Sebonack is pedestrian, and you should have made it a downhill hole.

There...

 

[John Kirk]

Some people may hesitate to be critical of a course because of gratitude to their host, or an accomodation afforded by the club.

The recent KP event to Stone Eagle is an obvious example of this.  30-40 GCAers play the course, and although there were a lengthy thread or two on the course, the posts were dominated by a few defenders and an attacker or two (World Cup analogy).  It should be apparent to all that Stone Eagle is/was not everyones cup of tea.

Mike,

Most notable was the lack of participation in the thread by many people who played Stone Eagle during the tournament.  I knew the course was rather coolly received by the lack of participation.  A pretty clear indicator that people were reluctant to criticize this project.

I wrote a few posts challenging Tom H's assertion that the greensites were a little tight.  I don't think people perceived me as being defensive or angry about it.  Curiously, I didn't find the lukewarm response threatening or depressing.  I'm quite happy with Stone Eagle, flaws and all.  The course plays better at 75 degrees on a full night's rest.

[Glenn Spencer]

It has been a long time, 13 years in fact, but the 18th hole at Riverdale Dunes was a letdown for me, on a course that I otherwise LOVED. I was confused by it.

[John Kirk]

Michael Jackson,

Thanks, that was plenty. I just wanted to see some. 6-7-8 are a little tight.

No...6 is the greatest hole in Santa Cruz County, especially the big screen in front of the houses.  You guys are wrong!

Pasatiempo should be a scared cow.

 

[Geoffrey Childs]

I'd say that if you want to seriously discuss architecture you should give up your rater card...As long as people jockey for position (raters and architects) this site will never reach its potential.  I'm reminded of the time some people out in the desert built a golden cow to worship...and that sacred cow didn't even have a golden ticket.

Please explain John -

You seem to be implying that raters will never be critical and architects will always suck up for rating points.

Ran is a rater and its his site    Should all architects give up their practice so they can discuss architecture on here in your idyllic pure forum?

Geoffrey,

With the recent expulsion from a major panel of a rater who fell overly in love with a less favored architect I think it is safe to say that we rarely get the truth on this site in the future.  If people are not auditioning for a ticket they are protecting one.  

John

You seem to know more about and monitor what is going on with the various panels then the raters. Do you keep a database on this stuff?

Frankly, if you think we rarely get the truth on this site then why don't you point out each example and make them defend their remarks. Instigate some frank and honest debate about golf courses.

[George Pazin]

I wrote a few posts challenging Tom H's assertion that the greensites were a little tight.  I don't think people perceived me as being defensive or angry about it.  Curiously, I didn't find the lukewarm response threatening or depressing.  I'm quite happy with Stone Eagle, flaws and all.  The course plays better at 75 degrees on a full night's rest.

John, you might be the only person on board who accepts criticism of his course.

 

I've said it before a million times, but the hardest thing about this board is discerning poster intent, so my own personal solution is to assume that everyone's posting as though we're sitting around at the 19th, sharing a beer and BSing about golf. But every now and then I get caught up in the vitriol as well, it's hard not to do with the style of posting some people have. I don't care if people disagree with me, but I do get annoyed when they start questioning my motives, or questioning my reading comprehension, or my honesty, etc., or if they start doing the same with posters I know and respect.

P.S. My only criticism of Tom's courses is that none are in my neighborhood.

[John_Cullum]

Frankly, if you think we rarely get the truth on this site then why don't you point out each example and make them defend their remarks. Instigate some frank and honest debate about golf courses.

Geoff,

Be careful what you ask for.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Frankly, if you think we rarely get the truth on this site then why don't you point out each example and make them defend their remarks. Instigate some frank and honest debate about golf courses.

Geoff,

Be careful what you ask for.

JohnC

I've got nothing to hide.  I've called out Doak on Pasatiempo #11 green and Rans beloved Yeamans Hall.  I've blasted my home course over a period of years.  I've defended Rees Jones restorations.  I love Merion. How much more honesty do you want from me?  

[John_Cullum]

You mean there are people who don't love Merion???

[John Kavanaugh]

Frankly, if you think we rarely get the truth on this site then why don't you point out each example and make them defend their remarks. Instigate some frank and honest debate about golf courses.

Well, that is usually when I get in trouble.  Just answer me one question...Would this be a better site if every poster had equal access to all courses.  If the quality of baseball in the Negro league was at a high level why did Jackie Robinson choose to move to the Majors.  I don't see his desire to play for or with people who hated him any different than your bashing of Yeaman's Hall.  With the execption of course that his mission was good for all men and not just himself.

[Tom_Doak]

John K:  No one is officially "asked" to join the ASGCA.  You apply and then you are accepted or not.  I've never applied, although I have been encouraged to apply by several members over the years, including by pretty much every member who participates here.

Tom H:  Yes, every individual has personal sacred cows, that's human nature and there is no getting around it.  But I am concerned that when the sacred cow belongs to one of a few Most Favored Posters, that discussion is COMPLETELY STIFLED by multiple flaming posts in all caps or even color, and that if it goes far enough, somebody will tell the teacher that so-and-so is being a bad boy.

As to those two critiques of my work:

Voytek:  All the ground behind the eighth tee at Sebonack is lower, and it is all wetlands.  We built it up about eight feet as you might notice on the drive in, but then the surface elevation of the pond had to be built about three feet above ground level so the bottom of the pond wasn't into the water table.  It would have taken a LOT more fill to make the hole downhill and there might not have been enough room.

Shivas:  For most people, that mound to the left of the fifth green at Lost Dunes is there to hold up a shot played deliberately short, if the pin is in the front of the green and the hole is downwind.  But, for a selected few, it's just there to distract you from the right play.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H:  Yes, every individual has personal sacred cows, that's human nature and there is no getting around it.  But I am concerned that when the sacred cow belongs to one of a few Most Favored Posters, that discussion is COMPLETELY STIFLED by multiple flaming posts in all caps or even color, and that if it goes far enough, somebody will tell the teacher that so-and-so is being a bad boy.

That does suck - you will get zero argument from me there.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Most notable was the lack of participation in the thread by many people who played Stone Eagle during the tournament.  I knew the course was rather coolly received by the lack of participation.  A pretty clear indicator that people were reluctant to criticize this project.

I wrote a few posts challenging Tom H's assertion that the greensites were a little tight.  I don't think people perceived me as being defensive or angry about it.  Curiously, I didn't find the lukewarm response threatening or depressing.  I'm quite happy with Stone Eagle, flaws and all.  The course plays better at 75 degrees on a full night's rest.

John, like some of the other participants at KPV, I played Stone Eagle once as a second round of the day in 110+ degrees and was actually somewhat disoriented at times by the heat!  I thought the course was a great layout on a difficult piece of land.  I loved the green sites, the hidden fall offs in several of the greens (#13 par 5?  #17 par 5) - loved the skyline greens - didn't like the walks back to some tees but mainly because it was so friggin' hot   and wasn't crazy about the convoluted cart paths which were obviously essential on that wild site.

I wrote pretty much the same thing immediately after the round, and I thought there was some other criticism as well.  But this is not criticism of the design itself as much as what a difficult site required to build a golf course up there on top of the world.

I don't believe the course was "cooly received" at all.  Not in that weather!    

75 degrees in January would be a welcome sight, but I'm sure I'd still be whining about the need to ride and the cart paths required to do so.

[Anthony Butler]

Tom Doak, if he is indeed a sacred cow, should be in a separate category of his own.

Back in the 60s Marshall McLuhan famously said of GE "They are not in the business of selling lightbulbs, they are in the business of selling information about lightbulbs..."

In that same manner, the main thing Tom Doak and Renaissance Design sells s a philosophy of how to design and build a golf course. That's what people are buying when they hire Tom to design a course for them.

Out of the 1,500 people who are members at GCA.com, I'd venture a maximum of 50 have played Barnbougle Dunes, but the information made available and shared about it helps sell Tom's name and more geographically accessible designs. Even more important, Tom finds many willing accomplices in this effort. Most people are less willing to trash a brand when they've participated in its creation.

*** Think about what would happen to Donald Ross's reputation if he was to raise from the dead, get a broadband line installed, and start contributing to golfclubatlas.com.

[Mike_Young]

What a disappointing conclusion to this thread.

Mike Young -

I'm sorry to hear you think there is a lack of respect for the achitecture business on this site. I think quite the opposite. But if you do feel that way, a few pointed posts educating the rest of us might go a long way.

George,
Golf has always been a funny business..just look at the original golf stocks.....business men that would never have made such a stupid decision in their company would fall head over heels to be in a golf stock or golf company.....golfers have a hard time separating the game from the business....why would a golf grip ever go public?  How much $$$ did Greg Norman make off of Cobra??
Most people would not write a will without a lawyer or think they could do knee surgery w/o a doctor yet that same person would attempt to handle $5 million as an architect.  All because he has an idea.  I am not one to discourage people from following their dreams but most people feel they can do this golf architecture stuff...I see it everyday....And in truth they have no idea where it begins and ends....
I see these "design contest" and some guy sends in a 2 dimensional hole design and somebody chooses.  Nothing is stated as to drainage, irrigation grassing etc.  these are just some simple examples.
I have followed college BB for years and have watched how many fans think they can coach....and many have no respect for many of the coaches......only those that win get their respect.....yet there are 300 D1 coaches that have some idea of what they are doing.
Same goes for architects....people only respect those that they THINK are the "winners"....and so we end up with an idividual respect issue yet an overall disrespect for the business because most only know enough to be dangerous and feel they can do the entire process better.  I see it everyday.
Mike

[Geoffrey Childs]

Frankly, if you think we rarely get the truth on this site then why don't you point out each example and make them defend their remarks. Instigate some frank and honest debate about golf courses.

Well, that is usually when I get in trouble.  Just answer me one question...Would this be a better site if every poster had equal access to all courses.  If the quality of baseball in the Negro league was at a high level why did Jackie Robinson choose to move to the Majors.  I don't see his desire to play for or with people who hated him any different than your bashing of Yeaman's Hall.  With the execption of course that his mission was good for all men and not just himself.

JohnK - No - the site would be neither better nor worse if every poster had equal access (my opinion only of course). Why are you so focused on access and raters? That seems to be your equivalent to Roger Rulewich for me. I sure hope everyone understood my hangup better then I do yours.

I speak up when I have something to say or contribute (or at least I think I can) and other times I sit back and read trying to learn something. I've also come to respect some opinions and others less so.  If those others happen to have access to and speak up on more courses it would make little difference to me and what I learn. Maybe that's my loss - who knows but more is not always better.

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoffrey,

I think you are an excellent and valuable contributor to this site.  It is your roll as a rater that I find completely self serving to both you and the magazine you represent.  It is a scam built on blackmail and bribery that hurts golf more than helps....That is, unless you think the current work at Plainfield is a direct result of the slam presented to them by Golf Digest...and of course if you think the work is an improvement.

note:  If asked I would gladly be a rater too..but I'm a selfish bastard at heart.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,

I think you are an excellent and valuable contributor to this site.  It is your roll as a rater that I find completely self serving to both you and the magazine you represent.  It is a scam built on blackmail and bribery that hurts golf more than helps....That is, unless you think the current work at Plainfield is a direct result of the slam presented to them by Golf Digest...and of course if you think the work is an improvement.

note:  If asked I would gladly be a rater too..but I'm a selfish bastard at heart.

John - How would you know if I (or anyone else) played a single course this season "as a rater" by using that status to gain access?

Are you really sure Gil and his master plan for Plainfield and its restoration were finalized AFTER the GOlf Digest ranking came out? Would you be willing to bet on that one? - and YES - I'e seen it before and after Gils work and it is a VAST improvement over an already teriffic golf course - and NO I did not access it as a rater.

Blackmail and bribery - That's where I end my participation in this discussion.

To John C  - About Merion- I love it in spite of the fact that it has been ruined by that demon Fazio and McDonald and Company - That's what I meant about bucking the trends (cows) here.

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