Pebble Beach vs. Pacific Dunes

[Erich]

Having just played Pacific Dunes and Pebble Beach in back to back days I came away thinking that Pacific Dunes was a much better course.  Don't get me wrong about Pebble its a great course, it just seemed to have a lot of average holes on it.  I thought that it had 6 world class holes and 12 so so holes.  Pacific Dunes I thought was the better of the two all the way around.  

Granted, I thought both opening holes were a little weak but that is just my opinion.  I am curious what others think.  If I had to rank courses I definately would not include Pebble in the World Top 10.

[Bob_Huntley]

Erich:

Pebble not in the top ten? My God man, empires have been lost for smaller slights.

[THuckaby2]

WHEW!  Thank God Mr. Huntley responded... I was waiting and I knew it would be good and he didn't disappoint.

Erich, this has been batted around ad nauseam here and you will find quite a few anti-Pebble compatriots in this dg. I happen to think Mr. Huntley is right on and Pebble remains at the top of any list, but to each his own.  Pacific Dunes is a wonderful golf course in any case.

TH

[Ran Morrissett]

Pebble Beach beats PacDunes in a few areas, namely:

1. the quality of its three shotters
 
2. its famous long two shotters (8-10) are, as you say, world class, while PacDunes' 7th is in need of companionship

3. As targets, Pebble's tiny, pitched greens are harder to find and/or recovery to. Some like the 12th and 17th at Pebble are tiny out of mistake but in general, Pebble's greens represent a more exacting challenge for the approach shot, not withstanding the great 6th green complex at PacDunes.

4. Pebble's cliff line is better as it is less linear and thus the architects could better incorporate it into the playing of the holes. The cliff is "only" an issue on the 4th, 11th, and 13th holes at PacDunes whereas the cliff confronts the golfer in different ways at Pebble, highlighted of course by the 8th approach and 18th tee ball.

Conversely, PacDunes offers greater width off the tee, greater angles of play, its larger greens afford a greater range of hole locations (and accommodate a greater range of type approach shots) and its varied green complexes such as those found on the 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th, the great 10th glued to the ground, etc. throw a lot of different looks at the golfer.

Still, Pebble's raw challenge + beautiful setting is a tough combination to beat though PacDunes competes with it like few others. Overall, PacDunes is most deserving of GOLF's #26 world ranking but I'll be surprised if it ever gets as high as Pebble's.

Cheers,

[Bob_Huntley]

Ran:

Thanks, I needed that.

[THuckaby2]

Ran - concur with Mr. Huntley.  Muchas gracias.  The very soul of golf was shrieking.  

TH

[Erich]

I am impressed with the responses.  I thought the small greens with the tight bunkering was great as well.  But, it almost always forced me to bring my ball flight in high and make it stop versus at Pacific I could do almost anything to bring the ball into the green.  Such as flying it all the way there, running it up, playing a knock down punch, putting it from well off the green.  

Now onto the setting.  I did not like scenery around Pebble.  Let me explain.  First, at Pac Dunes, it is complete serenity.  Not a sound could be heard on the 13th green except for the lapping of the ocean.  As for Carmel, the water looked like crap filled with seeweed and screaming birds.  Also, every hole was surrounded by these humongous homes that I thought took something away from the ambiance.  

There were a couple spanish styled homes surrounding the one hole that my playing partner commented that he thought he was in Spain not Carmel.  

More than likely you are all correct that Pebble is better than Pacific, but I would rather play Pac Dunes everyday instead of Pebble.  

Pacific is serene and peaceful and nearly every hole is pure eye candy, while Pebble is expensive and busy, and surrounded by cart paths and homes.  

[Rick Shefchik]

Such is the way of tourist destinations in America. The Alamo used to be a quaint little mission on the Texas prairie; now it's smack in the heart of downtown San Antonio. Gull Lake in Brainerd, Minnesota, used to be a great fishing lake with a few summer shacks dotting the shore. Now it's ringed with year-round homes that are in the process of being bought and torn down so someone with more money can build a more expensive year-round home on the site.

Unless a popular locale is turned into a national park, people are going to want to live there. The same fate is likely to befall Pacific Dunes as well, unless the adjoining property has already been protected in some way. I'd better get out and play there now before the Spanish homes, cart paths, screaming birds and crappy seaweed arrives. I figure I've got about 40 years.

[Erich]

Actually, word is that the 4th course (Bandon, Pacific, Sheep) will include some housing on it.  But, the housing is supposedly never to be seen from Bandon and Pacific.  

Supposedly, Sheep Ranch is open for play according to the locals.  The logo is supposed a Shepard witha  cane.  

[THuckaby2]

Interesting.  You'll notice Ran's comparison focused on the golf courses and not the surrounds or the prices.  For the total golf experience, I can see preferring Pacific Dunes, at least for the serenity - that is wonderful.  Pebble is expensive and crowded and if you are umipressed with some of the world's most expensive houses, than you aren't going to like half the course indeed.  Pebble also tends to take forever, although rounds weren't exactly speedy when I played Pacific last summer....

All in all this is a fair opinion, nothing wrong with it.  However if you want to compare the two GOLF COURSES, I'd direct you to Ran's response, which nails this completely.

TH

[Ran Morrissett]

Erich,

How would you compare the merits of the two routings?

On the one hand, Pebble's has long been held as being perfect though it is of the out and back kind.

On the other, I doubt the same will ever be said for PacDunes as it only yielded two par fours on the back and yet, the constant shifting of hole directions at PacDunes makes it harder to gauge where the wind is from than at Pebble.

Cheers,

PS How would you compare Cypress to PacDunes?

[Bob_Huntley]

Erich:

The humungous homes are mostly of recent vintage, in years gone bye the larger homes were of Mediteranean style and in keeping with the surrounds. Some of the stuff that has gone up in recent years is just plug ugly. I agree the surrounds have been contaminated.

That cruddy seaweed of which you complained is the result of an upswelling of the incredible kelp beds anchored around our coast. If you complain about birds do not, I repeat do not, attempt to play golf at any links course in Ireland and Scotland.

As you can see I am an impassioned defender of Pebble Beach.

[Tom Doak]

I just happen to be at Pacific Dunes today -- a perfect, sunny, calm day -- and I am much happier here today than I would be at Pebble Beach.  Of course I'm a bit biased.

I would also wager that Pacific Dunes, today, is in loads better condition than Pebble Beach.

As they say, just my two cents!

[Erich]

Routing.  Hmmm.  I really like the fact that you could never gauge how the wind was going to affect your shot at Pac since the holes were constantly changing direction.  You are dead on that Pebble uses the line of the ocean or cliff much better than Pacific.  But, with Pac Dunes you also get the gorse and long sea grass to surround each hole.  While Pebble had again houses.

I honestly liked the mixture of holes better at Pac than Pebble.  Now, don't get me wrong I have never had a more fun second shot than the second on #8 at Pebble.  A nice cut three iron into the wind right on the green.  But, at the same time I also hit an awesome punch 5iron from 91 yards at Pac.  

Now, Cypress Point versus Pacific Dunes.  Please.  Cypress Point in a cake walk the bunkering alone wins that contest.  

My own personal rankings of the top 10 would look like this:

Shinnecock
Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Augusta
TOC
Royal Melbourne
Merion
Sand Hills
Royal County Down
Kinston Heath
Pinehurst
Pebble

[Tim Weiman]

Erich:

Tom Huckaby mentioned there were folks on your side of the argument, so let me jump in.

My experience at Pebble Beach includes five or six rounds, thanks to living in California for about that many years. The first time I played the course it made a huge impression, but gradually the effect wore off. Holes 7-10 will always be very special, but much of the rest of the course doesn't do that much for me. Even the famed 18th gradually lost its appeal.

There are those who say Pebble Beach is the "better" course, but for me Pacific Dunes provided more pleasure on my one visit. I first walked the course in a pretty thick fog and without the beautiful vistas available and knew I was going to enjoy the course. The movement of the land reminded me of Burnham & Berrow (UK), a course that gets my vote for those among the most under appreciated. Like B&B, Pacific Dunes has some parts where the land form doesn't meet the standards found throughout the course. But, being a big fan of "mood change", I came away finding that as one of Pacific Dunes strengths.

Many have noted the routing plan for Pebble Beach. I suppose it is all one could get from the site. But, somehow, for me, the trips inland aren't so satisfying.....perhaps because the seaside holes are so dramatic. Like Cypress Point, Pacific Dunes just seems to move inland more gracefully, in my opinion.

I'm surprised by Ran's comment about the routing for Pacific Dunes. Doesn't Muirfield, for instance, receive compliments for changes in direction that make gauging the wind especially difficult?

One other point about Pebble. Though I'm reluctant to disagree with Bob Huntley, part of my problem with Pebble is not the overcrowding one finds, but rather what lies right down the street, i.e., a beautiful course with a serenity Pebble just can't touch. I can accept the long journey to Bandon as a way to get away from it all, but when I'm at Pebble, I just can't help wanting to play over at Cypress instead.

Tomy Naccarato and I were recently discussing one point I'd also like to add. To often we get into silly debates on GCA and forget that we are talking about an art form where tastes will vary. I don't want to convince Tom Huckaby that PD is better than PB. I want him to enjoy his preference as often as he can. Likewise I want to do the same. Life could be alot worse than chosing between these two courses.

I mentioned Ran and should close by refering to his course descriptions. You'll notice there is no hint of debate. His writing and photographic documentation are all about appreciating great examples of the art form we love. That's the spirit we could use more of within the DG.

[Nick_Ficorelli]

I know this , the chances of me forking out green fees at pebble for more than 1 round in a visit are nil.
Pac Dunes, I would play everyday for a week.
Just my $350.00 plus 2 cents.

[THuckaby2]

Tomy Naccarato and I were recently discussing one point I'd also like to add. To often we get into silly debates on GCA and forget that we are talking about an art form where tastes will vary. I don't want to convince Tom Huckaby that PD is better than PB. I want him to enjoy his preference as often as he can. Likewise I want to do the same. Life could be alot worse than chosing between these two courses.

Very sage, very wise, well said, Tim.  This is indeed kinda like comparing rubies to sapphires, isn't it?  And life would be pretty boring if we all agreed about stuff like this 100% of the time.

TH

[Erich]

You know this has been the most enjoyable thread that I have participated in since I have visited this site.  Everyone has given their opinion without attacking each other.  And, you are all correct on all your points.  Both are truly awesome golf courses and both feed to each persons personal preferences.  Who knows maybe I will go back and play pebble again just to see if it will draw me in a little more this time.  But, it is damn hard to concentrate when their is that little beauty right down the road.

[Ken_Cotner]

A fellow member at my club (and plus-something handicap index) just returned from 4-5 days at Bandon.  He loved both courses but said one thing that surprised me based on all the discussion here.

He said PacDunes was the most difficult walking course he had ever played.  I quizzed him on it a little -- he mentioned the sandy soil, dunes, and up-and-down hills (that surprised me).  Also thought the total walk was 6.5 miles, and the routing was not terrific, with a few long walks across holes to get to the next tee.

Mind you, he really liked/loved the courses and everything else there, and was just nitpicking a little when I asked him what the worst feature was!

Any comments, particularly regarding the routing?

Thanks,
KC

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

The categories, "Courses by Country" and "Discussion Group"
are different mediums, meant to have seperate and distinct functions/patterns/platforms.

The "Discussion Group" isn't meant as an alter, requiring universal genuflecting and idolizing of the chosen few.
 
Nor is it meant as a pulpit for elitists to preach to others what is the only acceptable architecture, and to tell others with differing opinions, that they just don't "get it".

It is to promote discussion, opinions, debate, and arguments on golf course architecture and related issues, with no ultimate, absolute goal as an objective.

Personally, I find pitting courses against one another as silly, but others enjoy it, so on each particular issue, let those who find the issue interesting discuss, debate and argue over it to their hearts content.

[D. Kilfara]

I've said before that if I had to split 10 rounds between Pebble and Pacific Dunes, I'd play at least 7 of them at Pacific Dunes, and I see no reason to change that. PD to me seems more strategic, more scenic, more serene, and most importantly has many more shots which are pure fun to play. Pebble has history on its side, and it has the most dramatic holes (well, apart from PD #13, anyway), but I find the overall PD experience to be in a different class - much closer to Cypress than to Pebble.

Ken, your mate must not do a lot of walking! Pacific Dunes isn't an easy walk - you have to walk around the backs of holes a couple of times - but it's hardly cartball. Rich Goodale and I walked 52 holes one day (ran out of daylight, or it would have been 54) during the GCA bash up there last autumn; there are certainly other courses at which I'd never attempt to walk 54 holes.

Cheers,
Darren

[Patrick_Mucci]

Erich,

Which 12 holes at Pebble Beach did you find so-so, and why ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick:

Have you ever had the chance to ask any of our brethren what they scored on the 12 so-so holes? It is quite amazing to me how such 'mundane' holes seem to wreck a scorecard.

[Tim Weiman]

Bob Huntley:

There is no linear relationship between how "mundane" a hole is and what goes down on the scorecard, at least not in my golfing experience. More often than not, if I don't "respect" a golf hole I screw it up. The holes I'm in awe of make me more determined to play them well. At Pebble, for instance, who doesn't want the memory of playing Jack's favorite shot well?

Pat Mucci:

Gosh, thanks for letting me know that the "Discussion Group" and the "Courses By Country" are different mediums. I would have never figured that out.

And silly me for thinking one could learn something from one to apply to the other. I'll try not to do that next time.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

All has been said but i cannot let two of my favorite courses go discussed without my 2 cents. Pebble is the better course period starting with Ran's reasons and keep going to all the rest. Pacific Dunes does belong in the same discussion of great courses and is a far superior golf experience to me. The pace of play, carts, corporate outings etc make Pebble a shadow of its former self. Yet, I will say when the wind is at 6 clubs plus, some of that is negated. After saturday, I yearn for either. America is fortunate to have both available to the public.