[Gene Greco]

I haven't played Sand Hills, but I can absolutely believe that it is "flatter than Ballyneal."  Believe me, almost any course would have to be flatter than Ballyneal.  And, that's neither praise nor criticism--it's just a fact.

  Tim:

     Since you have not played Sand Hills I, and many others, will assure you it is not "flat."

However, since I have not played Ballyneal it may very well be "choppier" as has been asserted by others who have.

[Tom_Doak]

Gene:

I didn't mean to say that Sand Hills was flat, but there are not a lot of really uneven stances, and not a lot of little bumpy undulations you might have to take into account on ground-game shots.

I certainly didn't say that Bill and Ben needed to move earth.  One of the things I learned from working on Ballyneal is that Dick Youngscap and Bill Coore had been smart to pick some of the less severe parts of the property to build their course, so they didn't have to deal with frequent ridges in the fairways that would lead to blind shots.  They made the property look even more dramatic than it really is by digging all those bunkers.

We didn't have that choice at Ballyneal -- most of it was undulating -- but I saw that as a good thing because I didn't want to be seen as cloning Sand Hills, and the scale of the undulations would help to make it different.  If Tim can think Ballyneal is too undulating, I can think Sand Hills is not choppy enough.  That's a matter of personal taste.

Please don't forget, I had Sand Hills pegged as one of the great golf courses in the world before you ever heard of it.  But it's like I said above, if comparisons are going to be made, it's not fair for Sand Hills to be held above any critique.  It's great, it's a 10, but no course has everything.

[John Kirk]

I've played both courses now, so I can offer my completely unbiased opinion, in order to make a general observation.  I've played about 6 rounds at Sand Hills and about 10 rounds at Ballyneal.

Just like the land they occupy, Ballyneal's fairways are definitely "choppier" than Sand Hills, with smaller and more frequent undulations.  In my brief experiences at both courses, I found a reasonably flat stance perhaps 50-100% more often at Sand Hills.  But an accurate drive of the correct distance yields a flat stance on most holes at both courses.

I think I can tell whether a course is a Doak course or a C&C course by the fairway undulations.  I've played three courses by Tom (Pacific, Stone Eagle and Ballyneal) and three by Bill & Ben (Sand Hills, Bandon Trails, and Hidden Creek).  Generally, Tom's fairways tend to be lumpier, and Bill & Ben's fairways tend to have bigger, smoother shapes.  I'm sure it's largely due to their taste in the land they choose, and there are exceptions to the rule.  The 16th at Bandon Trails has a wild fairway and green.

Anyway, thought I'd make a case for the biggest difference between the two architects' philosophies.

[Adam Clayman]

Today, Geoff's quote from Bobby Jones, is appropriate to assist in the description of Ballyneal.

Of all the courses I've played tournaments on, if I had to be sentenced to play only one course the rest of my life, I would pick St. Andrews in Scotland, because it changes so much, and there's nothing about it that's obvious.  BOBBY JONES

My self induced sentencing has been even better than expected. It's truely a great personal joy that Tom didn't compromise the undulations, to accomodate the few whose ideal is focused on fairness through flatness.

It's a golf course playable for every level of golfer, yet will still challenge the better player.

Isn't that the good Doctor's definition, too?

[Tom Huckaby]

HE'S BACK!

Welcome back, Adam.  It's been far too long.

From these descriptions of Ballyneal, I've been imagining you playing it, and one word kept coming to mind:  JOY.  You have found a home and that is very, very cool.

I shall see it myself some day, of that I have no doubt.

TH

[George Pazin]

It's truely a great personal joy that Tom didn't compromise the undulations, to accomodate the few whose ideal is focused on fairness through flatness.

I love this sentiment!

Helluva first post.

 

[Tim Pitner]

It's truely a great personal joy that Tom didn't compromise the undulations, to accomodate the few whose ideal is focused on fairness through flatness.

I just want to emphasize that my point about wishing some of the fairways at Ballyneal were a bit more flattish (or had smaller scale undulations, in Doak's words) has nothing to do with fairness.  For me, it's an aesthetic and flow of the round issue.  Sometimes, when you're out on the choppy sea all day, you want to enjoy the calmer water.  

It's probably not fair to compare Ballyneal to Pacific Dunes but, since I've played each in the last month and they're the only two Doak courses I've played, I can't help it.  I love the fact that, at Pacific, it's links golf, but you also get a flavor of the Australian sandbelt (the bunkering on #7) and even English heathland (#8).  That sort of diversity doesn't exist at Ballyneal.  And, of course, this is no fault of the architect; it reflects the land out there.  

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, You are absolutely correct that the land dictated the design. Heck, that's what's been missing from most of "the big world" for the last 70 years of GCA.

The variety at Ballyneal is on a much more subtler scale. Recognizing that variety might require more than the 1 1/2 rounds you have golfed there.

 Multiple areas of more desirable flatter stances are out there, and they are on every single hole.

On a larger scale, The closing hole brings you gently back to the calm waters you cite as desirable, and is the one hole at Ballyneal that most closely resembles any of the holes at SH. It's highly probable that this is the way, Ballyneal not only impresses, but compells the "golfer" to return.

[Tim Pitner]

Adam,

I fully concede that I didn't "learn" Ballyneal after 27 holes, but I was very grateful to have experienced it and I have the generosity of a fellow GCA'er to thank for that.  

Sorry to flog a dead horse, but my comments have little to do with flatter stances.  You're right though, they do exist, although identifying them and hitting to them are two different things.

Not surprisingly, I liked 18.  

[Gene Greco]

No one has mentioned it yet but Sand Hills is actually quite a bit flatter than Ballyneal.  I've always thought it was a bit too flat in the fairways....

Tom:

    Of course, no course is above criticism. Pine Valley is overgrown and Cypress Point has a less than desirable finisher.

    Regarding Sand Hills, one individual who posts frequently here said he "didn't like the site" the course was built on. I asked him why and he responded "because it doesn't have any trees. I like trees."

    He is now a rater at a major golf magazine.

   
     Another individual from Northern Cal said he wasn't enamored with Sand Hills because of the heat of midsummer. Point taken as some days in the sand hills with regard to all of these courses in the prarie feel like you're sitting in front of a fan placed in front of your open oven door.

     But that has nothing to do with gca.

     Another poster with a very regal name claimed all the holes at Sand Hills look alike. My response was he might consider taking a closer look at his next visit or think about critiquing something other than golf course architecture as all the holes at Sand Hills are easily discernible as distinct and unique.

    And now you.

    An individual whose life is golf course architecture and one who through complete devotion and hard work and constant study has risen to the top of the profession. (Congratulations, you deserve it).  

    A golf course architect whose biggest "problem" is whether Sebonack or Ballyneal receives course of the year honors for 2006.

    And yet even you are in error because as quoted above I believe you did say the fairways at Sand Hills were flat.

   And I beg to differ.  

   I believe there is some cant to virtually every stance one takes in the fairways at Sand Hills.

   As far as the presence or lack thereof of choppy little bumps you're right - the defenses leading into the greens are spread out over a wider surface area at Sand Hills with the entrances to the greens tied directly to the greens themselves. In effect, the ground game and deflections are more subtle - to a point.

   As you alluded to in no way is this inferior golf course architecture or you wouldn't have given Sand Hills a 10.

   Also, as you stated it's simply a matter of personal taste. Frankly, I enjoy both of these varieties as long as they are or appear to be natural and you have proven to the world you can move earth in keeping with the natural surrounds in numerous instances.

   With regard to "digging all those bunkers" for dramatic purposes one needs only to refer to, of all things, your very own Confidential Guide and view the before and after photos of the "dramatic" blowouts on hole #18 to see that THEY WERE THERE already.

     Jim Kidd, the former pro at Sand Hills, was there during most of the construction process and in his interview with CBS's Sunday Morning stated unequivicolly that "most all of the blowouts were there already and only a bit of scraping needed to be done." The most notable exception is the deeper part of the blowout to the left of #4 which was used to build the only green which needed to be done at Sand Hills.

     "Please don't forget, I had Sand Hills pegged as one of the great golf courses in the world before you ever heard of it."

      Again, Tom, you are mistaken.

      You see, I went to school in Nebraska.

     I attended Creighton University for eight years and first saw the sand hills in 1978.

I had travelled throughout the state during my time there and continued to return to the state once or twice a year to visit my best man and his family and to attend the Hunt Ball in Omaha. Many of the hunts took place on ranches in the western part of the state and many of these individuals were privy to goings on around the state. I got wind of a possible  project back in 1991. I believe there also was a small article in Golf Digest or Golf Magazine around the same time about there being a land purchase or an option to do so on what Ben Crenshaw called the greatest land for golf he had ever seen.

     If there is one thing about this site which we have all learned from both Tom Paul and yourself is that "its a big world out there" and there isn't a course which could be held above critique.

However, don't tell that to Tommy Naccarato regarding the Old Course. Or Rich Goodale about Royal Dornoch. Or Tom Paul himself about Pine Valley. Or George Pazin about Oakmont. Or Tom Huckaby about Sand Hills. Or Pat Mucci and George Bahto about NGLA. Or Adam Clayman about Ballyneal. Or Steve Lapper about Royal Melbourne. Or Neil Regan about Ballybunion. Or Dick Daley and Wildhorse. Or Wayne Morrison at Shinnecock. Or Brad Miller and Prairie Dunes. Or Phillip Young and The Black. Etc.

Or Gene Greco and the great Sand Hills Golf Club in Mullen, Nebraska.

And..................though you won't admit it, deep down, Tom Doak and Pacific Dunes.

     

     

[Ron Farris]

Gene - Wow that is some incredible----- whatever you just wrote.  Ad a relative newbie to this site I think it is exactly posts like this that keep me looking at the site. As a Sand Hills born Husker, I can tell you that flat or not flat SH is a mystical place.  I am referring to the entire SH, not the golf club.  I have been to Bally, SH, and Dismal during construction and they all are marvels, despite the massive quantities of earthmoving, albeit via shovel, dozer, or box scraper (bad word - sorry Tom, or sand pro.  A few things that are not flat are a couple of greens at Dismal.  Wow!

Creighton is a fablulous school and it is alway nice to hear from people who now live outside of Nebraska, but have fond memories fo the place.  

For years and I mean years, I told my wife that we should build a golf course in the Sand Hills.  Her reaction - who in the heck would play the damn thing - the cows.  In the mid 80's I was working on getting financing to do a SH project from some Japanese clients of mine.  They saw pictures and thought it was Ireland or Scotland.  Their first question was how long does it take to get there and could you find some land like that near Vegas.  Sand Hills GC hit the North Platte news and that was the end of my solicitation.

[Tom_Doak]

Gene:

I love you, but don't put out misinformation, or let our friend Jimmy Kidd do it for you.  

Jim Urbina and I hit balls around the routing for Sand Hills before anything was constructed ... that's when I took the pictures of 18 that are in The Confidential Guide.  The only bunkers I can remember which were there in anything like their present shape or size were:  the bunker off the tee on #1, the big pit left of #4 (from which they borrowed to build the green), the blowout way left on #11, the big bunker short left of #15 green, and the bunkers pictured on #18.  I remember thinking that the blowout on #4 dictated one end of the golf course and getting out to #14 green so you could see the bunker on #15 dictated the other end of the course.

The rest of the bunkers required extensive digging ... so much that when I played the course for the first time before it opened, there still weren't any fairway bunkers on #16, they were just getting to them.

I marvel at how Bill and Ben, Dan and Dave, etc., did a great job of creating bunkers that blended naturally and add to the strategy and character.  In fact, I remember distinctly that I thought the green site for #8 was a poor choice, because it only had the bank behind it and I didn't see how a green in that bowl was going to be any good.  I wasn't visualizing that they would dig all those bunkers around the back and use the fill generated to form the green itself, so they could then dig a bunker into the front of it and create a great hole.  So don't take anything away from them by pretending that it was already there.

P.S.  The term "a bit too flat" does not mean FLAT.  And a lot of the people on this site know Sand Hills very well, so I'm not trying to mislead anybody.  I'm just pointing out that it is flatter than their impression of it.

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, I apologize if I trivialized your critique down to flat stances.

I do believe there is ebb and flow to both the visual and the visceral at Ballyneal.

For instance; I asked Tom if he considered the ninth, a breather hole. His response wasn't about his perception, but rather the perceptions of others. He opined that because the 7th and 8th, being half pars, might preclude the perception that the ninth is a breather. I then realized my interpretation of the ninth being a breather was based on a visual (and visceral) basis.

One of the fundemental needs for ebb is the flow. i.e. At Pebble Beach, the 15th hole follows the ultra difficult 14th. Ergo the need for the ebb at the pre-butchered 15th.

At Ballyneal, the difficulty of the holes, is not, and was not entirely dictated by the architect. The difficulty will be determined by the elements, and in the execution of the golfer.

So, if you could expound on your criticism of the bb and flow maybe we can get somewhere.

Gene, I took a guest to Ballyneal yesterday. Once I foundout he'd never seen SH I found myself describing SH as "awesome". Which of course it is.

Tom Doak, It would appear theres a concerted effort to pick apart almost everything you have to say. Some have described your attitude, to me, as arrogance. Personally I don't see it. But if it is there, I'd say you deserve to be.

Just a heads-up, in-case the effort gets out of control.

[Gene Greco]

No one has mentioned it yet but Sand Hills is actually quite a bit flatter than Ballyneal.  I've always thought it was a bit too flat in the fairways, and that the only thing it was lacking was some of the smaller-scale undulations that Pacific Dunes has.

Tom:

   The phrase "..quite a bit flatter" connotes "flat" in people's minds who haven't seen the course.

Don't forget there are 1500 people who post here and who knows how many others who lurk. Most of these people will NEVER see these courses in person and rely on the written word in order to vicariously feel what the course is like.

  I, as well, don't want you or the enlisted sentries putting out any misinformation.

   With regard to bunker placement no one is suggesting they somehow magically appeared in all the strategically correct areas.

But you had stated the land wasn't dramatic at first and bunkers were dug up to create this dramatic effect. Then you contradicted yourself by saying #1, 11 and 18 were there already.

    Those bunkers are some of THE most dramatic bunkers in the world and I would think very hard to forget.

    "No one mentioned it.."  - but you did. Why???

     You taught Nicklaus something about golf course architecture but I believe you learned a great lesson from him concerning what he does best.

    You've got the momentum - no need to put more coal in the locomotive.

     

     

 

[Tim Pitner]

I do believe there is ebb and flow to both the visual and the visceral at Ballyneal.

For instance; I asked Tom if he considered the ninth, a breather hole. His response wasn't about his perception, but rather the perceptions of others. He opined that because the 7th and 8th, being half pars, might preclude the perception that the ninth is a breather. I then realized my interpretation of the ninth being a breather was based on a visual (and visceral) basis.

One of the fundemental needs for ebb is the flow. i.e. At Pebble Beach, the 15th hole follows the ultra difficult 14th. Ergo the need for the ebb at the pre-butchered 15th.

At Ballyneal, the difficulty of the holes, is not, and was not entirely dictated by the architect. The difficulty will be determined by the elements, and in the execution of the golfer.

So, if you could expound on your criticism of the bb and flow maybe we can get somewhere.

Adam,

I'm not sure I'm up for a grand theory of ebb and flow, but let me tell you how I felt after playing Ballyneal.  Well, first, I felt like playing another 9 holes plus, but I didn't have the time (that's an endorsement of the course).  But, I also felt like the course was so tumultuous that I didn't get a great feel for some of the holes.  Sorry for using my sea analogy again, but there were times that I did feel like I was lost in heaving waves of fairway.  It was great fun, but I'm a fan of simplicity too--for example, the way the small, front bunker on #5 dominates the hole.  I wish there were a few more holes like #1, #6 and #18.  I guess I'm referring to smaller undulations and subtler features.  

By the way, please keep my comments in perspective.  Even with extremely slow green speeds, Ballyneal is in my personal top 5 or 6 courses so, obviously, I loved the course.  

One other random comment:  I made a point of looking back toward the tee from the green on #7 and it's really amazing how narrow the landing area over the bunker appears from the tee and how much room there is to hit a shot (a draw would be best) and still hold the fairway.  That is one fantastic hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

I am well aware that many people find me arrogant, especially when I disagree with them.    And especially if I don't back down.

Gene:

You are welcome to compare Sand Hills and Ballyneal after you come and play the latter someday; in fact you are welcome there as my guest.  Nothing I said above was intended to denigrate Sand Hills or the great architectural work that was done there ... in fact I went out of my way to cite examples of it.  

And yet you still accuse me of trying to undermine Sand Hills to the advantage of Ballyneal?  What number do you want me to give Sand Hills -- an 11?  

I was just pointing out some of the DIFFERENCES between the two courses.  They are different, mostly because of the differences between the two pieces of property, but some of it is deliberate, too ... as you would expect, where I was not so fond of an aspect of Sand Hills, I tried to do that part of the job differently at Ballyneal.  But I can't really compare aspects of the two if I don't include Sand Hills in the comparison, and it seems like that is off limits.  So I'll stop now.

[Jim Nugent]

Gene -- "quite a bit flatter" does not mean flat to me.  I am interested to hear that Sand Hills is flatter than Ballyneal.  Ballyneal must really roll.  

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