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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #75 on: July 25, 2006, 01:55:15 PM »
what surprised me most was that I don't ever recall Ron criticizing any other major venue anywhere nearly this bad, and there have been plenty of courses worth lots of criticisms, such as Kemper Lakes, Carnoustie and it's setup in 99, etc
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #76 on: July 25, 2006, 02:12:59 PM »
Rich you are right, probably his weakest reason and one of his most sarcastic.  I also disagree with visually disappointing as a reason its a poor championship test.  I've played plenty of great looking but lousy golf holes in my day.  Three (normally one) ain't pretty, but what a great hole.  Same could be said for the Road Hole for that matter.  I also think he's wrong about the bunkering; didn't it dictate the winning strategy.  

I thought it was a great Open and a wonderful course.  

Royal Liverpool has posted its summary of the Championship with a few choice words of rebuttal.  

http://www.royal-liverpool-golf.com/
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #77 on: July 25, 2006, 02:15:54 PM »
John, Thanks so much for linking the article.

It is interesting that RW has a new design that stretches to 8k.
I believe the goal of the Institute was to lure a PGA gig by being uber elastic. And that was many many years ago.


If one reads the article again, with out focusing on O.B., but substitute B.S., you can see the rhetoric.

Looking forward without respecting the past is RW's major discretion.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 02:17:57 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #78 on: July 25, 2006, 02:41:39 PM »
Dan, as has been pointed out on another thread, less is almost always more. So it is with RW's attempted demolition of Hoylake. If he had a few powerful points to make, maybe he would have an argument. Instead, we have a kitchen-sink style argument - "and another thing" - which is totally unpersuasive.

As Rich has so well demonstrated, RW's economy with the truth when it comes to previous champions is just breathtaking. How can you take seriously the arguments of someone who can happily print what is an utter travesty?

As for his comments on the par fours and fives - they are simply wrong in the context of Hoylake played under normal weather conditions. It is certainly doubtful that you get up on 5 and 10 with an iron for the second shot and the idea  that par fours like one, three, twelve, fourteen and seventeen are short is laughable.

tlavin

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2006, 03:15:55 PM »
I'll agree with the overall tenor of the posts here and say that Whitten's comments were more than uncharitable, but I think anybody would have to agree that if there is a weak link in the Open rota, Royal Liverpool, aka Hoylake, aka Royal Yellow Asphalt Golf Links is certainly the weak link.  I suppose there's nothing wrong with going there every couple decades.  We can wax poetic about the strategic options that were afforded the field during the British Open and there's no denying that, but do you want to look at a tournament that looks like that on television?  I don't.  I guess there's a lot of history there and it's nice to prove that you can trick up a golf course by starving it of water and make it difficult enough that the best player in the world winds up being the winner, even though he nearly shot 20 under par in the process.  I just don't want to look at golf that ugly.  Nothing wrong with firming up a golf course, but there wasn't a living blade of grass in most of the fairways.  If that is the joy of golf in the United Kingdom, I'd rather stay home and go to a cash-strapped Fresno muni in August and play a dead golf course.  No need to get jet lagged to play dead golf courses.

ForkaB

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #80 on: July 25, 2006, 03:39:43 PM »
You are joking, Terry,no? ;)

There are only a very small number of US courses that have the architectural sophistication of Hoylake, and none of them are in Fresno (nor on the US Open rota).

Maybe if they play the Open in the future at someplace like the Belfry you'll be happy!? :)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #81 on: July 25, 2006, 03:46:15 PM »
That was a dead golf course, just like all the trees in Michigan are dead after October.

This, my friends, is what you're up against when you are a proponent of drying out a golf course. Misinformed people equate brown grass to dead grass. Of course, like Terry, they're dead wrong.....but never in doubt.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

John Kavanaugh

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #82 on: July 25, 2006, 03:50:15 PM »
I understand the argument that the grass was dormant...was it dormant like zoysia in the winter or dormant like Walt Disney...
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 03:51:45 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2006, 03:52:17 PM »
Interesting take Terry, considering that Ron bagged on Olympia Fields in his article.

Having now read the article, I' think I get what he was getting at, but I'm not sure he did much to win Brits and influence Allies. In all, and I have said this before it amazes me to no end that Ron's tone in many of his articles of the past few years, have taken on an almost Golf Club Atlas-like tone, as if almost he was making a post addressing us.

In actuality, I think it's cool too, and John maybe right that some of us have driven Ron from the site, and that is indeed a bad thing because Ron Whitten is, well, Ron Whitten.... I'll make my amends here if I'm any part of that factor, because after reading the article, it would seem that Ron was too appalled that they omitted history, went with changes that were somewhat less then honorable when taking into account, history. More specifically I'm of course speaking of the 17th which looks as if they took a perfectly charming Scottish hazard--Stanley Road--and have eliminated it from being a factor in play, saying one could actually putt out of bounds. Now I don't know if that's a local rule or not, but certainly OB is being defined by the artificial nature of the road itself which to me is in the term of links golf, almost sacred. You simply don't eliminate those quirks and challenges that are gifts to the links as bizarre as they may be.

Ron goes on further to explain how the cops were moved or removed in certain areas. Cops which Bobby Jones himself touted as masterful strategic hazards of the place. I'm with him on this too.

However, and much like myself on threads chastising all sorts of architects and courses through these years,  Ron took a more aggressive approach calling Royal Liverpool/Hoylake, Royal O.B.

Ron didn't like the internal O.B. which flew into the face of tradition, (which I agree) and from what I'm reading, he probably didn't like the idea of switching #1 and #3 either. I'm not very knowlegable on Hoylake, but again, I would probably take a stand for it in tradition and history, so why change regardless of the length? Playing at Hoylake was for the most part a return to past greatness where history of our favorite pastime has played an somewhat important part of. But that's where I will disagree with Ron and say that it would be better of him to go after the very soul of those who are making Hoylake obsolete, not so much the R & A, but the manufacturers....

Terry, Of all people, you should be one that understands that the Hoylake fescue was anything but dead. We've heard it here from knowledgable observers who were there in person. The grass isn't accustomed to the temperature so it reacts by turning brown. It's not dead it just wants cooler temperatures to remain the color which appeases one's eyes.

For my eyes, I like that specturm of colors that were at Hoylake which made it one of the best looking courses we've seen this year. Beautiful in it's color, immaculate and perfectly in tune with it's exisiting environment. But as American's we all have a very hard time trying to come to grips when we can't control what Mother Nature has blessed upon us, and which we are just not accustomed too.

Frankly speaking if I were to die and go to heaven, I hope the conditions of the golf course be as warm and colorful as they were at Hoylake, restored with that pesky road there ready to swallow one of my shots whole.

To me that's Golf.

John Kavanaugh

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2006, 04:03:20 PM »
Royal OB...It could have been a thread title on GolfClubAtlas...I like the British and New York tabloid style of news reporting....I like GolfClubAtlas.  Looks like Ron has simply changed with the times and used colorful language to get our attention in this busy world we live in...I find it a nice break from the seriously deadly news that won't stop coming...

Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2006, 04:05:34 PM »
Dan

What Whitten is doing is not analysis but rhetoric.

Between his Massy, Padgett, Daly examples, the 3 Opens at Hoylake were won by:

JH Taylor
Walter Hagen
Bobby Jones

After Daly, the next three were won by:

Peter Thomson
Roberto DiVincenzo
Tiger Woods

The record of the course speaks for itself.

Speaking of "not analysis but rhetoric", how *any* of the above names can be used to argue anything other than each golfer played the best golf in one particular week is beyond me, but then I'd have beaten this horse to death a long time ago if I'd have been solely in charge of it...

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2006, 04:05:53 PM »
Gee John, why didn't you add that before? What an original thought!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 04:06:10 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

John Kavanaugh

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2006, 04:10:35 PM »
Tommy,

It is really not original at all...Sadly we are now driven somewhat by revenue from internet hits.  It is a proven fact that if you want hits you need controversy....It is changing the etiquette of reporting.  Of course being an old flamer myself...I eat it up.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2006, 04:38:06 PM »
It is a proven fact that if you want hits you need controversy....

I don't buy it.

Here are today's top 10 e-mailed stories from The New York Times (which I presume would also be among the most "hit" stories):

Op-Ed Contributor: He Who Cast the First Stone Probably Didn’t

Nice Rats, Nasty Rats: Maybe It’s All in the Genes

Books on Science: Faith, Reason, God and Other Imponderables

Books of The Times | 'Fiasco': From Planning to Warfare to
Occupation, How Iraq Went Wrong

Scientists Say They’ve Found a Code Beyond Genetics in DNA

Spain’s Ageless Beauties

Editorial: Read the Fine Print

Road Trip: Chasing the Perfect Taco Up the California Coast

‘Crash’ Principals Still Await Payments for Their Work

Most States Fail Demands in Education Law

------------
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Kavanaugh

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2006, 04:52:47 PM »
Dan,

I read The Sun and the New York Daily News every morning...Fantastic headlines guaranteed.  There is no reason to be sad if Ron went over to the dark side for his column..It's just golf afterall...not like Big Brother in Britain or anything...

I have learned to forgive Geoff for his controversial stances often taken...It is really all the same thing...hits, hits and more hits..

Let's see...Your Times went with biblical reference, rodents, God, war, genetics, pretty girls, tacos, money and education...nothing controversial there..
« Last Edit: July 25, 2006, 04:53:49 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2006, 05:01:03 PM »
John,
Do you actually think Geoff gets money for hits controversial stances he is taken? Do you actually believe he is doing it simply because he wants hits?

If you do have facts show them.


John Kavanaugh

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2006, 05:12:33 PM »
Tommy,

I see ads on Geoff's site...I would guess he prefers that people come to his site than not....Please tell me if Geoff receives money from his advertisers per hit or not.  I would prefer to be able to read his site guilt free..

I have in the past not clicked on a link to a story I thought was inflamatory because I did not want to contribute to the coffers of the author...I hope I am wrong and can start to surf willy nilly once again..

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2006, 05:28:35 PM »
Let's see...Your Times went with biblical reference, rodents, God, war, genetics, pretty girls, tacos, money and education...nothing controversial there..

As you well know, it's not *my* Times!

Of course, there's plenty of controversy in those stories. There's controversy in EVERYTHING -- as you also well know. You, after all, are a guy who spends time arguing on the Internet about golf-course architecture!

It seems to me that you were saying: Controversy for the sake of controversy is what sells (as evidenced by the number of "hits").

I am saying: Material of interest to many people is what sells. Sometimes it's notably controversial. Sometimes it isn't.

By the way: That 1st piece (about casting the first stone) is just outstanding. Check it out.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2006, 05:33:14 PM »
John,
Do you actually think Geoff makes money from those ads? do you think the advertisers are knowingly paying for his exceptional content? To me, thats advertisement. Not some Yahoo ad that won't even pay for a 1/4 of the monthly cost to run the site.

And John, if you really forgave Geoff, why then did you even bring it up?

Sounds to me as if your still harboring some mysterious grudge or chip on your shoulder that is anybody's guess what could give you good reason to.

John Kavanaugh

Re:What does Ron Whitten think now?
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2006, 05:44:44 PM »
Tommy,

I have no grudge against Geoff...I even just went on his site and clicked the Amazon ad so he can have another cup of coffee tomorrow (self brewed of course)...I only base the popularity of Geoff's opinions on when they are quoted or linked on this site...In almost if not every case they are controversial...The golf world doesn't need Geoff to tell us Tiger Woods has a nice stroke..

One thing I don't understand is why Ran does not have Amazon and Yahoo ads on this site...Where is the harm and the Amazon ads are a nice way to make books available to the members..