Going All Poa Annua

[Mark_Huxford]

Because Mike Clayton wrote the opposite of this report at the New Zealand Open this year, I thought I would ask you all for your opinions on this. Our club has been fighting a losing battle with poa annua for many years; small greens, heavy number of rounds per year, cool and wet climate in winter, tiny maintenance budget etc all make it tough. Is this a bad move however, to go all poa on a sandy links course with hot dry summers?

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark

Having never been to PB, I couldn't say either way. It may however pay to check out what is done at Barwon Heads GC (Vic, Aust) where poa remains the dominant greens surface, with I think only one bent green (14 - not sure?). It seems to work OK there, in a climate/topography/soil type similar to yours. I'm sure Mike Clayton will jump in soon with his thoughts.

Shane

[Phil_the_Author]

You may also want to get in touch with Craig Currier at Bethpage. The Black Course has Poa Annua greens. These were given rave reviews by the pros at the Open with comments ranging from "These are the best greens I've ever seen" to "These are better than Augusta's".

Having played the Black on September 11th, even after the course was closed down later in the day (I was on #11 at the time) due to WIND (the WORST I've ever experienced on a golf course), I can attest that they have held up well through a very dry New York summer.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
It appears from your club's newsletter that your regional turf professionals agree to the change. I would defer to that decision based on their collective knowledge.

[Mark_Huxford]

Thanks all. When I say Mike wrote the opposite earlier in the year I mean he wrote the following:

"Sad to report nothing has changed. 25 yard fairways, long rough around the greens that stops the contours taking the ball where it ought to go and soft poa greens combine to render the golf course devoid of strategy. If they widened the fairways got themselves some decent, firm bent greens and cut all the long mess around the greens it might play the way Mackenzie would hope and his partner Russell envisaged. ~ I guess the problem with the greens is that the greenkeeper thinks they are OK. The fact they were ordinary to putt was only one point and maybe not the important one. To me they were too soft and you could come at them from the wrong angles and still stop the ball. They, no doubt, demand a lot of water in times of little rain and its hard to imagine them ever being hard,fast and smooth."

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark- I have some experience with the Poa on the monterey peninsula. I love it as putting surface because I can take charge over the ball rather than letting the brocoli-like nature control me(my ball). I think it's made me a better putter. i do have two questions: You say it's hot and dry in summer. How hot and how dry? Poa will not live if it gets to 114f with et rates of 3.3.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark:

We had Poa greens for close to 75 years at MPCC here in Pebble Beach and they were superb surfaces. When the Dunes Course was redone some three years ago it was decided, (without  Rees Jone's approval) to replace the greens with A1 or something like that. Bad decision. We are now attempting to return to Poa. A big problem in Pebbble Beach is that the reclaimed water, which we are contracted to use, has a high salinity content and cause much distress to the greens.

You might want to contact our super, Bob Zoller, who has a great deal of knowledge on the subject.

www.mpccpb.org

[Mark_Huxford]

Adam, Bob, thanks.

Adam, not quite that hot, thankfully. Mid to high seventies throughout summer. Latitude south similar to Northern California.

[Mike Clayton]

Mark
When Bruce Grant took over at Portsea they had the worst poa greens imaginable. Soft to hit to and bumpy to putt they destroyed any chance of a good player enjoying the round.
The poorer players didn't mind because the course was easier.
He got rid of almost all of the poa in a few years with a minimium of pain and the greens are now,year in year out, some of the best in the country.
If you compared maintainance budgets dollar for dollar they are unquestionably the best
The two courses are very similar -both soil and climate- so rather than going to a turf institute ( or certainly as well as) someone should get in a plane and have a look and a discussion with Bruce.
I have putted on some fantastic poa greens but they have all been in climates where,I suspect, growing bent would be infinitly more difficult than at Paraparaumu.

[Mark_Huxford]

I will suggest this Mike, thank you. Apologies for taking notes. You should be glad I'm paying attention though.

[archie struthers]

Great source of information for many of us, I hope, so please log in and help. Having just gone thru an awful summer here in South Jersey, with incredible heat, drought, and water restrictions, it is interesting to note the differing conditions of golf courses in the area. New courses ( Twisted Dune, Hidden Creek, Sand Barrens, etc. ) weathered the storm much better than old courses. In fact many of these golf courses are in excellent shape right now after just a little cool weather and some rain. These all have predominently bent grass fairways and greens.

The older courses, with older poa/rye/bent ,mixes, range from bad to awful. I really wonder if you can continue to hold Poa with the weather we have in the mid-atlantic/transition zone. All experts please weigh in and help!!!!!!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Courses in the coastal areas of the  Pacific NW, Oregon and Washington, are almost entirely Poa Annua.  New courses are grown in as bent and then over time the poa takes over.  Probably the most aggravating time is during this change over period.

Once established the poa makes for a tremendous putting surface.  Seed heads in the spring can be a distraction but  can be controlled with vericutting and, budget permitting, growth regulators.

The temperatures in you part of NZ should be perfect for poa.  Care should be taken during hot and dry periods to cool the greens with some water.

Hollow core aeration is a minor inconvenience but does require some practice to lessen the time during which the putting surfaces are affected.  Our greens tend to take 2-3 weeks to return to their pristine condition.  

Sounds like you are on the right track, good luck and I look forward to putting those greens again.

[bhampson]

Just a couple observations,

Pebble Beach, Pine Valley,  Winged Foot,  Beth Page, etc all have poa greens and all are regular tour stops.

You can have good to excellent poa greens that putt just as well as bent.  Regarding the wetness of the greens,  Are they push-up greens or do they have a drain tile in them.  When I was in St Louis we managed poa greens with no drainage and I will tell you that every drop of water that went on those greens came through a hose and that was the ONLY way we could keep them firm and fast.

I would also say that a good friend of mine is a turfgrass egghead who does research and he has told me time and time again that trying to keep poa out is a never ending battle that the poa will most likely win.  With that said I will be spraying pro grass and pre emerge soon as to keep fighting the good fight against poa.

[Michael Stachowicz]

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the horrible year it has been in the Northeast and Mid Atlantic for poa growers.  Anthracnose and summer patch are leaving greens at really good clubs 25% to 50% dead.  This alone is a good reason to go to bent.  The further north you go, poa has a hard time making it through an icey winter.  Poa is a weak grass, and therefor not reliable.  If the seedheads are controlled it is a great putting surface, but you take your chances year to year.

[archie]

It seems that the key to maintaining the poa courses, and not so much the bent, is the incredible pressure on the superintendent to correctly spoonfeed the water. If he/she isn't really on the ball, or gets a bad break, the whole place is at risk, all summer long.

TEPaul is very familiar with the work of Scott Anderson at Huntingdon Valley, and hopefully will chime in. I watched Dick Bators' miracles first hand at both Pine Valley and Atlantic City Country Club, but wonder if nuclear war with poa isn't the only logical long term solution. What happens to the clubs who don't possess the necessary funds/clout with membership, or are public and can't afford to close the course
during the changeover.

Philadelphia Country Club, which had beautiful rye/poa fairways and greens, spent a huge amount of $$$$ to regrass. This not only to get ready for the USGA but as insurance against grey leaf/anthracnose et al. This money just isn't available to the average club.
What then? Hire the best guy available and worry?  Or try to manage the poa to the exclusion of all else.

How about Rolling Green. Didn't they face the same problem?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Would the anthracnose, summer patch and fuserium be less of a problem if we didn't judge our putting surfaces on speed alone?

As long as superintendents are cutting greens to ridiculous heights (90 1/1000ths of an inch at my club) in an effort to please greens chairs and golfers who don't understand the risks, then we are going to get disease problems on our putting surfaces.

If we are willing to pay large sums to maintain pristine bent grass greens then so be it.  But golf is already reaching a point where new players don't see the value.  Costs are out of control.  How about we raise the mowers a little, put some contour back into the putting surfaces of new courses and stop trying to fool mother nature.  Just let the poa be.  It is a truly great putting surface.  Just ask the players at Oakmont.

We all know it isn't nice to fool mother nature.  

[archie s.]

Our greens though a little on the slow side at Greate Bay this year held up ok. however the fairways and surrounds, which to me are critically important, took a real beating. Still looking for the right answer, though I know which way my mind is heading!

[Mark_Huxford]

Cos, you've played here. I'm sure you will agree the best 'maintenance meld' for us, as TEP would say, is firm greens and consistent approaches to greens. PB is defined by the size and orientation of the greens and their attendant hazards rather than length.

It still requires some thought and positioning to score well here today, although certainly less than in years past. Will changing to poa mean the greens will always be softer? They are kept soft now and they are half bent. If so, won't the better player find PB, at 6,500 yards, very dull after a while?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Mark,
If temperatures in summer don't exceed 80 farenheit very often the super should be able to keep the greens firm.  You don't have a problem with shading so the greens should behave pretty much the same throughout the eighteen.  

That said.  The member who I played with when at Paraparam was concerned that no core aeration had ever been done.  This practice alone will soften the greens a little.

The maintenance crew will also need to be available for some had watering during warm weather.  I assume that the irrigation has not changed and it is still pretty rudimentary.  The course was certainly firm when I was there so I don't see any reason why it can't stay that way.  

I have one other question.  What does it hurt to allow the Poa to grow in?  It shouldn't cost much more money to follow this path.  After all is said and done, if the results are not satisfactory then go in rip the place up and choose another grass.  

Or you could fly me and our superintendent ( a master of poa) over for a consultation, some golf and a little boating!

I think in the end it is best to follow the local turf recommendation and see what happens a few years down the road.  I look forward to returning to see how it works out!!

[MikeClayton]

Mark
We just finished the Victorian Open at Portsea and Sorrento.
The greens at Portsea were some of the best I have ever putted on -pure bent,firm and a wonderful test. They were abysmal a decade ago as soft mushy poa that destroyed any design intent but Bruce Grant turned them around without rebuilding any.
The fairways were wide -as opposed to Paraparaumu and the NZ Open- and the use of short grass around the greens to sweep the ball away makes it a much more difficult test than it appears at first.
Speaking to Paul Davenport -who grew up at Paraparaumu- he agreed Portsea is the perfect model for Paraparaumu to follow.
Someone ought to get over here to check it out because I suspect we both know how much better it could be -and poa greens are not part of the answer simply because you could have so much better.

[Craig Disher]

I asked a former greens employee of one of the better-known clubs mentioned above how they kept their poa greens alive during the east's hot, sticky summers. He said the club used large amounts of fungicide, spraying at least once a week throughout the summer and more often during humid and hot periods. The greens were also hand watered. The cost of doing this was phenomenal - hundreds of thousands of dollars for the fungicide alone! But he said the greens never failed.

I've always argued at our club not to fight the poa. After this summer, though, I'm beginning to think it's a losing proposition. Better to go with one of the tolerant bent varieties.

[Mark_Huxford]

Thanks for recalling this thread and taking the time to update us Mike. It means a lot. We do need someone over there to see this.

I think the club has been a bit greedy in recent times in terms of the amount of play they have let on Paraparaumu. They have certainly killed the golden goose this year, cashing in on Tiger, and the poa simply reflects this. It's just hard to turn down those $90 green-fees when your loose priorities have put you in debt.

Does anyone know who designed Portsea? Was Sloan Morpeth responsible for some of the holes?

[Mike Clayton]

Mark
Sloan Morpeth turned Portsea into an 18 hole layout in the sixties. Previously it was a 9 hole then a 12 hole course.
Over the past decade there have been significant changes to the course although the basic routing remains the same.

[Mark_Huxford]

Right, I knew they tribute the first hole at Portsea to Sloan Morpeth so I figured he was involved somehow. Also, I vaguely remember something about it in Jack Pollard's book but that may have been Peninsula perhaps.

Mike, what are your thoughts regarding small greens on courses that see a high number of rounds annually?

Here the greens like the 9th tend to fare a little better than the 6th or 8th for instance. On many greens there just doesn't seem to be a lot of room for moving the cup around from day to day to spread the compaction. Didn't Pine Valley have Tom Fazio build an alternative green for the 8th some years ago for this reason?

Finally, I read Greg Turner has retired from the European Tour at age 39 to develop his course design business here in NZ. I enjoy watching Greg play but I have to say that could be good news for architecture here.

[A_Clay_Man]

After rereading this thread I recall and will share what the best battle plan for the fight is and basically the only way to combat poa, when it starts to invade.

1). Educate crew(and golfers too) as to what it looks like and when they see a little 2"X2" patch of it. Take out your knife and hack it out of there. Replace the level with sand and be on to the next one.

 And every person who comes in to complain about all the 2x2 patches of sand on your greens you can just smile and know that your work is being done for you.

Diligence