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Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« on: July 05, 2006, 09:35:25 AM »
I've seen brief mentions of criticism for TPC Duluth.  That got me to thinking of the general opinions here regarding Norman's design work.  Any and all opinions are welcome.  The more detailed, the better.

Questions of opinion (& fact) to consider:
  - Has his work evolved or matured?
  - Strengths / weaknesses?
  - Is he strictly a capitalist in choosing his projects? Note: NOT necessarily a bad thing, especially if he's upfront about it ;).
  - Was he initially a name facade for a veteran architect?  If so, has that changed?

My only interaction with Norman's work was the International Course at ChampionsGate.  I thoroughly enjoyed the course; due mostly to its contrasting style to any course I'd previously played.  I've been curious about his work ever since.

Thanks for taking the time --- and let's have fun batting this one around.

Glenn Spencer

Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2006, 10:28:30 AM »
I have played Elks River or Run or something like that, a few times. It is in Batavia? Ohio near Cincinnati. I really like about 15 holes out there. The par 5 third is an awesome hole. The long par 4 on the front 4? I believe is really, really a great hole and most of the others on the front are OK. The bad holes are the short par 3 on the front. It is just stupid. The long par 4 on the back 14 maybe, this hole just asks too much from you off the tee without being able to hit driver and the landing area is too sloped for a blind tee shot. 10? is a little questionable, outside of that, it is pretty good and definitely fun to play.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2006, 10:38:26 AM »
Why do you guys put pictures of women next to your names...It makes for bad office and living room protocol.  Don't get the point of it..

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2006, 10:43:41 AM »
Nick,

Actually, for the most part the TPC at Sugarloaf has been well received by both the general public and the folks here at the treehouse.  Not this past spring, but the spring before there was even a thread discussing whether the Bellsouth - Masters - Heritage was the best three course stretch on the PGA Tour in terms of GCA.  I still miss Atlanta Country Club (prior host to the Bellsouth), but I think that Sugarloaf is really a pretty good track, and shouldn't be tossed into the grouping of "typical" TPC courses.  I'll toss out #3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 13, 15, 16 & 18 as examples of some good holes out there.

Keith


Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2006, 10:52:34 AM »
My experience with GN courses is limited to one, the Elks Run Gelf Club in Batavia, OH. Elks Run is a privately owned, true daily fee course.

The only insight I can give you about Norman's capitalist tendencies is that I am told that he required, as a condition of his contract, that Elk's Run have the highest green fees of any public access course in the area. The fee is $85.00 for all day, including cart and range, so if one is playing 36, it's a great deal. And since it is a little way out from the city, a double round day is a good choice. Elks Run also offers an annual fee of about $2500.00, well worth it for those who trek to the course with regularity.

The course is in a wonderful environment, a valley approximately 20 miles west of downtown Cincinnati, an area I call the doorstep to Appalacia. The bucolic farmlands surrounding the course enhance the golf atmosphere. There are no housing or industrial developments nearby.

I like the design. There is plenty of room to hit the ball from the tee, though off line shots are penalized by the heather that lines the playing corridors. There are few in-line obstacles off the tee.

The greens are generous and rolling, with no two alike, and open in front. Bunkers tend to be to the sides and even the backs of greens. They are fairly deep and vary in shape. One interesting maintenance note is that there are no collars around the greens. Fairways are mowed up to the greens and in some cases to one side or the other, creating run-off (chipping) areas; otherwise, the 2 1/2 - 3" rough is maintained right up to the edge of the greens.

I've not played there enough to evaluate the maintenance over time. It is certainly designed to be able to be played firm and fast, but I've never seen it that way. The holes in the lower areas are usually quite wet.

The first three holes (a short four, a mid length three, and a mid length five) give a nice introduction. For the remainder of the round, the course works into and out of hillsides, including holes working up draws between hills (the 7th and 15th), down hillsides (the 5th, 8th, and 16th) and along a forested creek at the base of the hills (the 10th - 14th.) The finish (16-18) is back in the meadow where the round began.

There is one hole that I find rather contrived, and that is the par 3 eighth, a 160 yd. drop shot over a hazard to a very small green. I'm not generally against drop shot holes; Elks Run has two drop shot tee shots which are challenging and fun. This hole, however, clings to the hillside for dear life and might very well wash away in the next big rain. And there is no room for error.

While the first few holes ease you into the round, last four are the strongest, and a good round can go bad there if there is any let up by the player.

I'd probably give Elk's Run a 6+ on the Doak scale, maybe a full 7.  If you were in the Cincinnati area and had one round to play on a public course, Elk's Run is the place, if you have the time to get out there and back.

"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2006, 10:59:06 AM »
Shark's Tooth is outstanding.  Other Norman designs I've seen aren't.  And some are in between.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 11:37:30 AM »
John,

I liked Sharks Tooth as well, but the 6th hole alone renders the course something less than outstanding.

Solid wide opening hole over dead flat ground to a neat pushed up green with numerous short game options from the expansive green surrounds.  

I liked the third as well with a rare second shot option to a fairway over ninety yards wide.  

Cool green at the fourth shaped like a mirror image of the letter "p" with a really neat front pin location that is further protected by a false side halfway down the right.  

One shot fifth over an inlet of the bay is redanlike with a thumbprint effect on the low left side.  

At this point I'm thinking the course is borderline top 100 stuff, until the train wreck at six.  No room to drive the ball on this par five with less than 35 yards separating a fairway bunker left and jungle right.  Any ball in the fairway bunker is totally blocked by trees, requiring a pitch out.  The green on this par-five is best approached head-on, but this requires a second shot lay-up that leaves 175 yards for the third.  Otherwise, the diagonal carry over the wetlands is to an extremely narrow fairway with no real advantage gained by the longer forced carry.  The hole just doesn't work.  

The course never regains its momentum after the sixth, though there are some solid holes.  I liked the wing-nut green at the 8th.  

Hardly an intimate routing given the unobtrusive real estate component, but I found it reasonably walkable.

Overall, the course whetted my appetite to see more work by Norman's firm starting with  Tennessee National scheduled to open this year.

Sharks Tooth is the best course on the Panhandle.  I thought Fazio did less with a much superior site at nearby Camp Creek, for example.  

Mike
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 11:38:53 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Matt_Ward

Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2006, 11:45:55 AM »
Nick:

If you should head to Colorado I endorse 1000% his work at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott.

First rate layout and easily among the top 2-3 public courses in the state. How the course still flies under the radar for many people is truly mindboggling. Light years beyond the low level design you see in the California desert with his facility at PGA West.

At Red Sky Ranch you see the maturation of what Norman has done. The holes require a hefty diet of solid shotmaking and the greens are done well in that there are falloffs for iron play that happens to be just a bit off-target.




Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2006, 11:55:41 AM »
I really liked the Wente course here in Nocal near Livermore. It is like three courses in one, conforming the natural landscapes of the area. I also liked the Norman Course at PGA West in La Quinta and found it very playable and challenging making great use of sand traps and water/desert.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2006, 02:09:36 PM »
The PGA West Greg Norman layout maybe one of the worst golf courses I have ever been on in my lifetime, well second that to Buenaventura Circa 1928.

Matt Ward is correct in calling it low-level design. I can't believe that they actually haven't done something with it in trying to make it more playable. The one thing they have done is eliminate the centerline bunker on #15 which was one of the more strategic aspects of the course.

No one in their right mind is going to want to hit a golf ball on course decomposed granite. This happens to occur on most of the holes out there. It also suffers from mass repetitiveness throughout the round. It is simply an unplayable muck of a golf course.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 02:11:36 PM by Tommy Naccarato »

Rob_Waldron

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Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2006, 02:16:21 PM »
My thoughts after playing the GN course at Barefoot Landing was either GN was given the 4th choice in site selection or the design was just plain boring. I later discovered the latter.

I was not impressed with the Ritz Course in Orlando either. His new course at Lansdowne Resort in Northern Virginia is nothing to write home about. It is better than his Orlando Ritz and Barefoot courses but probably not even the best course on the property.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2006, 02:28:56 PM »
I've played Tiburon down in Naples and while it was not too memorable it was fun to play.  

I do remember there being lots of fun options around greens where you could choose to bump the ball, pitch it, etc.  The course also had no rough, but did have crushed shell waste areas that were fun to play out of as well.  It must be extremely tough to make a memorable golf course in Florida given the topography there.  

TaylorA

Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2006, 04:15:26 PM »
I would add hole 12 to the outstanding holes at TPC Sugarloaf. Overall, I think TPC Sugarloaf is one of the better courses on the tour and I think the move to May will greatly benefit the conditions under which that course is played.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Opinions of Greg Norman Designs
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2006, 10:25:24 PM »
I didn't think the Norman course at PGA West was as bad as Tommy states...course I shot a 78, one of my best games ever there.....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

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