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Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2006, 02:41:03 PM »
One other thing Tom-  Pick any course of your choice in the US (Top 100's might be nice) and find us a similar era aerial (1920's, 1030's) and an aerial from the present time and compare them as you did for Bethpage Black.  Let's see if you find one that looks more alike between the eras then Bethpage Black.

Would Shinnecock pass your test?  Cypress Point?  Find one.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 02:48:02 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2006, 03:15:44 PM »
Geoffrey
What does the state of the course in 80s and 90s have to do with the accuracy of the restoration? Just compare the current course to the 1938 aerial...the changes are there for anyone who cares to see them. I've detailed the changes before and I don't feel like doing it again. Look them it using the search.

Based upon your view of the changes to Bethpage and Engineers I beginning to wonder if Yale was an exception to the rule.

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2006, 03:20:05 PM »
One other thing Tom-  Pick any course of your choice in the US (Top 100's might be nice) and find us a similar era aerial (1920's, 1030's) and an aerial from the present time and compare them as you did for Bethpage Black.  Let's see if you find one that looks more alike between the eras then Bethpage Black.

Would Shinnecock pass your test?  Cypress Point?  Find one.

We are not talking about lost features...like the sandy waste areas at Shinnecock.....we are talking about blatent redesign/re-enterpretation in the name of restoration. Rees Jones did not accurately restore Tillinghast's features...I don't even think he tried. Do you think he did?  ???
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 03:20:37 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2006, 03:40:43 PM »
Tom, it is when you make statements such as "...the net result is more Rees and a lot less Tilly, but but loss or change to Tilly doesn't appear to concern you." that I lose all respect for your opinions.

Not only are you grossly incorrect, but you blatantly fabricate and attribute feelings to me that DON'T exist.

Tom, there are few people anywhere who have my intimate knowledge of Bethpage and the Black in the totality of it's history from the day it was opened as the Bethpage Golf Club in 1932 until this day, be it the entire land purchase or the reasons why they went from "let's build a new course" to let's build three new courses" in a very short time to behind-the-scenes knowledge of a great many details and decisions made by the staff and management and even more. In addition, I have an immense knowledge of every nook and cranny of the actual course since, through hundreds of rounds of golf played there ranging from my first round in 1967 till my last one in August of 2005, I have hit balls into almost all of them.

I interviewed Rees Jones and went through each and every hole, what was found, what was considered, what was done and spent many hours with he and his staff to appreciate why they did what they did.

I came to appreciate their intense desire to highlight what Tilly created by restoring what was there, yet you state, ""...the net result is more Rees and a lot less Tilly" as if this makes it true.

I respect that you are entitled to your opinion, but where is YOUR proof of these changes? Comparing one old aerial to measurements taken on the ground by physically probing and digging to find the bunker footprints are two VERY different things. Can you honestly say your method is MORE ACCURATE?

Where several bunkers have had fingers or removed for various reasons, you would consider this a drastic change and redesign even, yet they have been restored to their original locations so that shot angles and values are now restored to Tilly's original design intent.

How large is the aerial photograph that you study from in order to make these determinations? I am certain that it is not as large as the one I have worked from. That one hangs in Dave Catalano's office in the park and is THE 1938 AERIAL. Much of the details you think can be seen by magnifying glass can't.

You also misapply what is said by Rees and try to use it as proof of your belief. You cite an article from Golf Digest as "proof" that Rees & Fay made an arbitrary decision on how to re-do the bunkers.

"The big job was restoring the bunkers' original design and style," Jones says. "From a 1938 aerial photo that New York State had, we could see how the bunkers had deteriorated...  We decided to sweep the bunkers up to the green surfaces, like [A.W.] Tillinghast's bunkers at Winged Foot. The Black's bunkers are bigger now. They're going to catch a lot of shots."

You take his phrase that, "We decided to..." to mean that they were making changes. Of course, what is left out is the question I asked Rees during my initial interview with him in October of 2001, "Is it your opinion that Tilly's original bunkers didn't have sand up the faces?" Answer, "No, to the contrary. Even though we don't have any photos that prove this, we are fairly confident that this was so. Stylistically they are most like his bunkers at Winged Foot... that is why we sent the crews over there to study them."

By the way, some new photos that I have just recently come across show the sand swept up the faces. They are from the 30's.

Tom, your perceptions of what was the original Black Course design to the work done on it by Rees and his staff and considering it a wholesale redesign is totally inaccurate.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2006, 03:50:27 PM »
Geoffrey
What does the state of the course in 80s and 90s have to do with the accuracy of the restoration? Just compare the current course to the 1938 aerial...the changes are there for anyone who cares to see them. I've detailed the changes before and I don't feel like doing it again. Look them it using the search.

Based upon your view of the changes to Bethpage and Engineers I beginning to wonder if Yale was an exception to the rule.

I didn't think you would actually show us some data.  You never posted any comparison photos.  You only rehashed your mantra or minutiae (thanks TEP) over and over.  I posted photos in the past to prove this but I don't have them anymore so you do it this time.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2006, 03:51:43 PM »
One other thing Tom-  Pick any course of your choice in the US (Top 100's might be nice) and find us a similar era aerial (1920's, 1030's) and an aerial from the present time and compare them as you did for Bethpage Black.  Let's see if you find one that looks more alike between the eras then Bethpage Black.

Would Shinnecock pass your test?  Cypress Point?  Find one.

We are not talking about lost features...like the sandy waste areas at Shinnecock.....we are talking about blatent redesign/re-enterpretation in the name of restoration. Rees Jones did not accurately restore Tillinghast's features...I don't even think he tried. Do you think he did?  ???

Pick a course Tom- any course and show us one that looks today more like it did in the 1930's then Bethpage does.  Its a simple request but I didn't think you were up to it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 03:52:11 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2006, 04:59:36 PM »

Perhaps one of the crimes against Flynn, and it isn't a capital crime, may be his lack of recognition.  For so many years his former employees took design credit for work they did not do.  I think it a stab in the back for Dick Wilson to take design credit for Shinnecock Hills when he was not even in charge of construction, he worked directly under William Gordon.  Likewise Red Lawrence (although I have less direct evidence) who claimed design credit for Indian Creek.  Flynn's talents to build a golf course on a flat man-made island where every contour was designed and built up to 35' in elevation is an incredible achievement--along the lines of a Lido.  But his work was not even attributed to him (outside the club which knew better but is very private).  Flynn's lack of self-promotion and errant attributions have held back his recognition as one of America's greatest golf architectural talents.  I hope our book changes this.

Wayne - I think Flynn's lack of recognition is far from a crime - I'm not even sure it would qualify for a misdemeanor, or citation. Do you really believe he suffers from lack of recognition, or that he suffers from claims by Wilson and Lawrence? Sounds like a trumped up charge to me.

TEPaul

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2006, 05:43:06 PM »
SPDB:

Flynn's lack of recognition has to at least be worth a $5-10 parking meter ticket, though, don't you think? You know, the kind you can just mail in that are actually return envelopes.

But for Dick Wilson's crimes against the attribution of Shinnecock to Flynn should've landed Wilson in some jail's Drunk Tank for at least a year.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 05:47:09 PM by TEPaul »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2006, 05:49:57 PM »
Ran's point about Engineers and encouraging character and not the stimpmeter is a valid observation.  I know, however, that Ran would agree that the greens at Engineers today are loaded with character, even if they have changed a bit over time.  

Also, Mr. MacWood it's obvious why you posted this and I will say that Engineers is not in bad company "August, LACC, Bel-Air, Yale, GCGC, Oakland Hills, Hoylake, Pinehurst #2, Pebble Beach and the Medalist."  

Interestingly the great GCA crimes are all at world class tracts.  So, as a member of Engineers I thank you Mr. MacWood for highlighting this compliment.

wsmorrison

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2006, 07:26:23 PM »
SPDB,

Nothing on this thread can be viewed as a crime, we are talking about relative issues here.  If you consider the wide world and not this band of wackos on the site, Flynn is not well known.  During the Shinnecock Open (1995 or 2004) do you recall one reference to Flynn?  At Pinehurst in 2005 Ross was being discussed daily.  The fact is Flynn is not considered a top tier architect by the masses.  That doesn't mean he is not a top tier architect, it simply means he does not have the recognition that others do and I believe this.  Why do you think it is not true?  What is trumped up about Wilson and Lawrence laying claim to something that is not true?  For you to say it is trumped up means you must be informed.  What do you know and when did you know it  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2006, 07:27:11 PM »
Phil
The aerial is the same one that Craig Disher posted on this site several years ago. It has wonderful resolution.

I'm not sure waht Rees told you or why told what he did on you hole by hole interview but the pictures don't lie. I'm shocked you haven't studied the aerial closer.

Not only are these changes easy to see: 4-Green bunker significantly altered in shape, 6-both greenside bunkers altered in shape (stylized capes and bays that never existed) 7-Given the Winged Foot treatment, 9-Leftside bunker changed slightly, 10-greenside bunkers altered in shape, 11-WF treatment (with a big spider-legged bunker), 12-Leftside bunker altered significantly in shape-WF treatment (with new pronounced capes and bays), 13-greenside bunkers new, 14-new greenside bunker, 15 - all new bunker on the right (stylized with capes and bays) semi-WF, 16-rightside bunker altered in shape, 18-WF treatment.

There was a waste bunker right of the 7th green that was not restored. There was duffers headache in front of the 11th tee not restored. A bunker behind the 10th green not restored. Your fairway bunker on #4  that Rees moved was part of a three bunkers in a row, the other two are no where to be found. He also modified the iceberg bunker on the ridge, Rees added his pronounced capes and bays. The 14th had three bunkers which Rees replaced with a single bunker sytlized like his many other new bunkers. The 12th hole had three bunkers at the corner in Tilly's day, one bunker today. Rees completely changed the bunker left of the 11th green...Tilly's was much larger and did not have the goofy spider-arm capes.

For whatever reason Rees took architectural liberties throughout the golf course...based on his other attempts at restoration I'm convinced he can't help himself.

Have the changes at Balturol been redesign or restoral?
 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 12:35:28 AM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2006, 07:33:46 PM »
Jason
I did not know you were a member of Engineers. Engineers and Seawane...you are becoming the Typhoon Annie of restorations.

ATTENTION: Any club in the greater NY AREA with a classic golf course - in need of restoration - may want to stay clear of Blasbe.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 08:09:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2006, 07:52:15 PM »
Tom MacWood obviously won't document his attacks and claims of redesign.

I did find one photo among those I used to have that will allow all of you to begin to see what his claims are about.

The photo shows side by side comparisons of #16 and 17 greensites of Bethpage Black in 2002 (left in color) and 1938 (right in black and white).  Part of Tom's claims for the "wholesale redesign" of Bethpage Black are that the right greenside bunker on 16 was altered in shape.

Well it might be a touch different but I defy Tom or anyone else to find a couse that is closer then this in spots that are claimed to be the most tragic of mistakes.

Is this a case of redesign?  Is this all Rees Jones needs to do to get REDESIGN credit? COuld your old course be held up to the same scrutiny?  You answer for yourself



Tom Mac - come on now and put up the rest of them for us.  

Newport too!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 08:04:57 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2006, 08:08:27 PM »
Geoffrey
What do you make of the bunker to the right of the 16th green...is that Tilly? Like I said I don't think Rees can help himself, he has to leave his mark.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2006, 08:12:44 PM »
Geoffrey
What do you make of the bunker to the right of the 16th green...is that Tilly? Like I said I don't think Rees can help himself, he has to leave his mark.

Yup Tom - Give him design credit for that.  Put up the rest of them and MAKE SURE to include Newport for the same kind of scrutiny.

OK everyone else - Is this worth all this criticism.  Let's hear the word.  I'm ready to be proved wrong in the court of opinion.

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2006, 08:16:27 PM »
I proved you wrong a couple of years ago I don't why you continue to want go down this road....glutten for punishment?

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2006, 08:49:50 PM »
I proved you wrong a couple of years ago I don't why you continue to want go down this road....glutten for punishment?

Yup - Glutten - thats me.  Show me where you PROVED ME WRONG?  SHOW ME! Lets see if everyone else thinks this a a travesty and a redesign. Lets see what they think after you post all the rest of the side by side comparisons. #16 at Bethpage Black is a REDESIGN! It must play very differently then it did in 1938, 1978, 2002 to call it a REDESIGN.  The shot values and strategies are now Rees Jones. You would know  ::)

I hope you are working on those newport aerials.  You picked the course now lets give it the same scrutiny.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 10:00:21 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2006, 12:23:35 AM »
I proved you wrong a couple of years ago I don't why you continue to want go down this road....glutten for punishment?

Yup - Glutten - thats me.  Show me where you PROVED ME WRONG?  SHOW ME! Lets see if everyone else thinks this a a travesty and a redesign. Lets see what they think after you post all the rest of the side by side comparisons. #16 at Bethpage Black is a REDESIGN! It must play very differently then it did in 1938, 1978, 2002 to call it a REDESIGN.  The shot values and strategies are now Rees Jones. You would know  ::)

I hope you are working on those newport aerials.  You picked the course now lets give it the same scrutiny.

Geoffrey
You appear to have gone to the Mucci school of architectural precipice walking. You defend the universally accepted worst restoration architect known to mankind, instead of detailing your defense of his work, you demand those critical prove it by showing three or four aerials documenting the courses evolution over a period 70 years, and include a written account of the given entities mission statement and/or marching orders, not to mention an aerial comparison -- pre-1930 and post-2000 --  of every golf course built prior to WWII.

You asked for a laundry list and I gave you long laundry list. Your first visual comparison confirmed one on my laundry list. I'm 1 for 1.

Roots, rock, ....
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 12:40:43 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jason Blasberg

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2006, 08:55:00 AM »
Jason
I did not know you were a member of Engineers. Engineers and Seawane...you are becoming the Typhoon Annie of restorations.

ATTENTION: Any club in the greater NY AREA with a classic golf course - in need of restoration - may want to stay clear of Blasbe.

I believe it's Typhoid Mary, gez if you're going to insult me at least get it right.  

I have always considered Seawane to be a sympathic  renovation and stated so many time on this Board.  If I were the one making the ultimate decisions there it would have been different and I would have rather seen more of a Restoration Attempt.  That being said, however, SW is a far better golf course today than it was 5 years ago.  

One interesting thing about Seawane (and what an old aerial that I have from 1940 illustrates) is that what made it unique aesthetically were the bordering sand dunes throughout the course, dunes that were not on club property.  So one would have open vistas on most of the course of sweeping dunes and Reynolds Channel (the Bay).  

In the 50s 60s and 70s, however, the housing in Hewlett Harbor devoured the bordering property and alas the dunes and Bay were gone.  It was after the '65 World's Fair that 3000 trees were planted in runway fashion down most fairways.  

The renovation project removed all of those trees and restored the dunes look of the course with internal mounding.  Mounding was a prominant original feature that Emmet used both greenside and inbetween fairways.  

While the current mounding is far more pronounced it also gives Seawane a dramatic look like it once had, a look that it could never recapture through a Pure Restoration because  the bordering landscape changed so drastically.  

One thing that Seawane did that was more restoration than renovation was the bunker work.  While the look of the bunkers changed a bit and currently have more tounges and it a couple of places what were a series of 5 to 10 bunkers became large waste bunker areas, the bunker locations and severity appear to have remained very much the same.

The most dramatic addition of bunkering is the large and sprawling pot bunkering complex short and right of the par 5 9th green.  

While it is clear that significant artistic license was taken at Seawane it was "restored" to a meandering links golf course.  And while a couple of prominent bunkers that were removed over time were not restored (most noticably the bunker short of 2 green) those were mostly maintanence driven decisions due to the high water table and the fact that the property only drains at low tide.  Thus, those bunkers that were always holding water were removed and/or not restored.

Tom, I very much doubt that Dr. Bill Quirin would have done a piece in the Met Golfer entitled "A Links Once More" if he was taken by the renovation work and the current golf course.  

While it was never a Restoration Attempt the work done has yielded a far better golf course (notably the routing and green surfaces were never touched except to reclaim green size in several places) and a prime example of how modern day considerations and artistic license can still yield a solid product even if it's not a museum piece for Emmetphiles to come and worship.

Kevin Edwards

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2006, 10:09:37 AM »
Those two aerials look really similar to me.  That small difference in an spot where you are required to play a long 30-40 yard bunker shot gives an identical shot value to my thinking.

I'd like to see if another course (any course) could stand up to the same test that Tom MacWood places on Bethpage.

Childs 1 MacWood 0

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2006, 10:38:21 AM »
Shiv

Tom calls Bethpage Black a redesign.  Do you agree with that conclusion?

Can YOU find a golf course built in the 1920's or 1930's (or earlier) that is closer today then it was when it was built then Bethpage? Its NOT NGLA because I can find you some old photos of the alps bunker for example that are wildly different then today. #17 at NGLA is vastly different as well as is the Cape hole.

What I think is the travesty about Bethpage is their insistence on maintaining the narrow US Open setup. Also, if Phil has evidence that the greens were much larger then that would be a place to go as well. Those issues I find are more important or as important about bunker minutiae studied with a magnifying glass. That finger on the right of the green on 16 requires a long bunker shot as it did in that area in 1938.  Again- find me another course that is closer.

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2006, 11:26:57 AM »
Those issues I find are more important or as important about bunker minutiae studied with a magnifying glass.

Geoffrey
I'm sure Roger Rulewich is getting kick out of that comment.

Redesign, remodeling, modernization...whatever you want to call it, with all those changes, it ain't restoration. Too much Rees not enough Tilly in my view.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2006, 12:27:49 PM »
Tom

I think you are trivializing the difference between redesign and mostly sensitive restoration where routing, and most importantly strategies, playability and difficulty are intact.

Is Bethpage really a redesign as you have been claiming for years?  Can you make that statement from a 5 hour visit once in your life?

The Rulewich bunkers at Yale are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE different and worse then those at Bethpage.  They also importantly PLAY far differently then intended.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 12:39:12 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2006, 12:41:21 PM »
I've seen the side by side aerials and IMHO me we are talking about very minor differences.  

Don't the original bunker shapes have a lot more to do with the people building them then the architect, that some argue, wasn't even around that much?  The shot values are there, it is still a fantastic golf course, and not once when I play it do I feel like I am on a modern Rees Jones design.  

If things had been shifted and bunkers changed to where they would be simpler to escape from, and if the strategies and overall difficulty of the course was changed to make it easier, I could see a problem with the work done there. Saying there is too much Rees on the Black seems a tad much to me.  Tillie's brilliance is still on display, the shot values are preserved, and it is still an amazing test to this day.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2006, 12:44:54 PM »
Wayne -
We're obviously not talking about crimes. But I don't think Flynn suffers from lack of recognition because of misattribution. There are really only 3 well known classic architects in America Ross, Tillie and MacKenzie. Each of them is widely known for good reason.

Your response to my
Quote
The fact is Flynn is not considered a top tier architect by the masses.  That doesn't mean he is not a top tier architect, it simply means he does not have the recognition that others do and I believe this.

You seem to be answering your own question. Flynn doesn't have the recognition because the masses don't consider him a top tier architect. It's irrelevant that this might not be the case (i.e. that flynn is a top tier architect).
To me Flynn's lack of recognition seems to be decided by the market, not because he's suffered some indignity at the hands of Wilson or Lawrence. Perhaps your book will change things.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 12:46:50 PM by SPDB »

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