News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


T_MacWood

Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« on: July 06, 2006, 01:09:48 PM »
I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not.

 http://www.thegolfermag.com/F_top_arch.html

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2006, 01:55:53 PM »
Sean
I think RTJ's overhaul of Oakland Hills was the most publicized and famous, especially in the modern era, but actually there have been quite a few over the years, some more dramatic than others:

Maxwell & Colonial, Flynn upgraded Merion, Philadelphia, Cherry Hills before championships, Travis upgraded Columbia prior to the US Open and Pebble Beach's major redesign prior to the US Am. I think Ross may have redesigned Inverness before a US Open as well.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2006, 02:46:58 PM »
Tom,

I am surprised that since we just discussed the facelift that Tilly did at Oakland Hills in 1936 SPECIFICALLY at the request of the club as a preparation for the coming U.S. Open that you didn't mention that.

Tilly viewed it as a tweaking only, but there was a lengthening of holes and a removing of bunkers, which by your standards constitue a redesign!  ;D

Just having fun with you & not picking!

By the way, what issue of The Golfer is that from?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 02:48:10 PM by Philip Young »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2006, 03:55:40 PM »
The desecration of The Eden Course must have been 11th.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

wsmorrison

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2006, 05:18:56 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Both Flynn and Travis were paid for work at Columbia CC prior to the 1921 US Open.  I believe they were paid equal amounts if I'm not mistaken.  I'm going down there on Saturday to meet with Bob Walton, their consulting architect and some members.  I'll report back more details if I can.  

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 05:29:10 PM »
This Morrissett fellow has some particularly cogent insights into golf course architecture; perhaps we should invite him to participate here in the discussion group.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 05:29:28 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 06:18:30 PM »
This Morrissett fellow has some particularly cogent insights into golf course architecture; perhaps we should invite him to participate here in the discussion group.

It would be nice if Ran would at least say if he would keep the 10 or add/delete any.   Yale is probably the only one that has begun to rectify its problems and might be dropped off in favor of something else.  


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 06:19:44 PM »
I think there was a prior thread on this article last year.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 07:23:33 PM »
Phil
In an article on Oakland Hill's Tilly said he moved five tees, lengthening those holes and said that were no changes regarding the bunkers. I think you ought list this one along with Cascades as two more Tilly masterpieces. By the time you're done I reckon he will have designed half the top 100 in the country.  :)

What is the greatest crime against Tilly?

Wayne
I knew Flynn had altered the 1st or 2nd hole at Columbia, but I didn't know he was involved with Travis in 1920. Doesn't his name appear at Westchester as well?

What is the greatest crime against Flynn?


Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 10:01:32 PM »
My club has a  nine designd by William Langford and built in 1930 that is a great layout. It is 1 hour from Lawsonia and was done at the same time.

WL provided an 18 design for the course. When the club decided to build the back nine in 1960 they abandoned the Langford plan and hired another architect to design it.

The result is OK but using the Langford routing alone would have yielded a better course.

There are many legetimate reasons for what happened but it could be it might fit in the crime categoiry

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 10:22:52 PM »
'tiz absolutely amazing that Golf's Most Beloved Figure manages not to comment on anything here, at this discussion group - HIS discussion group - these days.

Sad, really  :'(
jeffmingay.com

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2006, 11:34:18 PM »
Tom, you asked, "What is the greatest crime against Tilly?"

Two things that I would consider equal. First the claim by Whitten about Burbeck. It is absurd and based simply on the facts presented, not worthy of any serious question. What makes it a crime is there position. Far in the future, unknown fans of golf history and architecture will look back and see an article in a magazine and believe it. The crime becomes two-fold because teh debate ends up denigrating Burbeck who will never receive credit for the incredible job that he did do.

The second crime against Tilly has also been perpetrated on all architects and courses - the crime of technological advances. Consider the 12th hole at Winged Foot West. designed at 497 yards, because of technological necessities, the tee is pushed back to nearly 640 for the Open. The 3 Capes don't come into play. The right side fairway bunkers do not come into play. The ability for the majority to consider going for it in two is not an option. All three design elements of this fantastic hole gone from the greatest championship in the world because technology conspired with the lack of backbone in the governing bodies of the sport to prevent anything from being done.

Did you know that nearly 60 of Tillys designs have hosted national championships or tournaments of national stature (e.g.- Pga events, etc...)?

So a third crime of almost equal proportions is the necessity for course closings. Of all his designs, which course played host to 2 national championships first? It was Fresh Meadows that is now a shopping center, assorted apartment buildings and streets. If hosting a U.S. Open and a PGA Championship can't serve as protection against expanding poulations and their needs, what course is really safe?

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2006, 06:59:37 AM »
Phil
#2 on your list should have probably made the Morrissett Top 10....that problem has effected many great old coures.

What about changes to his architecture...like what was done at Bethpage-Black? Or other important courses of his that have been changed, like Brook Hollow, Baltusrol-L and Shawnee-on-the-Delaware.

wsmorrison

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2006, 08:07:54 AM »
"Wayne
I knew Flynn had altered the 1st or 2nd hole at Columbia, but I didn't know he was involved with Travis in 1920. Doesn't his name appear at Westchester as well?

What is the greatest crime against Flynn?"

Flynn redesigned the 1st hole at Columbia and the 2nd green in 1923.  But billing records from year end 1921 show that Travis and Flynn were paid equal amounts of money ($300).  This relatively low sum of money indicates that substantial work was not done by Flynn or Travis.  Perhaps Flynn's work included a simple design or agronomic consulting of some sort.  It is impossible to say at this point what the compensation was for.  It is interesting to note that Flynn built the Westchester-Biltmore courses prior to the 1920 opening according to Travis's design.  They had worked together before Columbia CC.

Now, as to the greatest "crime against Flynn," I have to think this over more.  My first thoughts were the loss of some of his greatest work to development.  In the case of the Mill Road Farm course, Albert Lasker donated the estate with the golf course to the University of Chicago.  Soon afterwards the property was sold for housing development.  In the case of Boca Raton North and South courses, the courses were ignored during WW II as the area was used for naval observation and later plowed under for resort expansion.  In the case of Opa Locka and Floranada, the 1926 land bubble burst and brought to an end some outstanding design work that would be among his most highly regarded work today.  Yorktown CC, was perhaps rightly, restored back to a National Park, but some great golf that integrated military features (real Redans and many earthenworks) was a fascinating design exercise.  The resort development actually saved these features from being lost to residential development, so the golf design was a savior of sorts to the historic landscape at Yorktown.

Flynn's championship courses didn't suffer from technological advancements as much as others.  He, like a few other architects, designed in elasticity.  Flynn recognized the impact of technology and wrote about it in the mid to late 1920s.  He designed into his courses enough elasticity that they were able to be lengthened enough to defend the onslaught.  These courses are now at their limits though, so I hope that technology has reached its limits and desire that the ball be reigned in a bit.  Because of Flynn's foresight, few of his courses have been radically changed and in fact are less changed than most other designers.  They didn't have to be, Flynn's anticipation of the future allowed him to design for his time and the future.

Perhaps one of the crimes against Flynn, and it isn't a capital crime, may be his lack of recognition.  For so many years his former employees took design credit for work they did not do.  I think it a stab in the back for Dick Wilson to take design credit for Shinnecock Hills when he was not even in charge of construction, he worked directly under William Gordon.  Likewise Red Lawrence (although I have less direct evidence) who claimed design credit for Indian Creek.  Flynn's talents to build a golf course on a flat man-made island where every contour was designed and built up to 35' in elevation is an incredible achievement--along the lines of a Lido.  But his work was not even attributed to him (outside the club which knew better but is very private).  Flynn's lack of self-promotion and errant attributions have held back his recognition as one of America's greatest golf architectural talents.  I hope our book changes this.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2006, 08:33:11 AM »
Tom, you asked, "What about changes to his architecture...like what was done at Bethpage-Black? Or other important courses of his that have been changed, like Brook Hollow, Baltusrol-L and Shawnee-on-the-Delaware."

I try to view his courses in the amse vein that tilly did. He believed that his courses should adapt to changes in technology. He himself made changes to some of his own courses, so course changes in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, or in this case, crime against the architect. In fact, after visiting one of his designs during the PGA Tour, Tilly wrote that it was time for him to "take his own medicine" and so he recommended some changes.

For example, how can one argue that the present 16th hole at Augusta be replaced with the old hole with green in front of the creek and removal of the pond? It is by far and away one of the two most most memorable par-threes (IMHO) in major championship golf, the other being a few holes earlier on #12. For every person who will tell you I remember Watson at 17 at Pebble as the shot they most think of at a par-three in a major, I believe manymore will talk of Nicklaus nearly making an ace in "86 or Tiger and the NIKE commercial his shot created.

Candidly, a better hole is a better hole and any architect would accept that.

Now you and I differ as to what constitutes a "change" to a course. For example, in my opinion, the simple act of moving a fairway bunker is not in and of itself changing a hole if the purpose of the move is to restore and bring back the original design intent of shot angle.

An example. The bunker that guards the left corner in the fairway of the 4th hole at Bethpage Black. Tilly designed this hole to take advantage of several natural features of the terrain in a very imaginative way. First, there is the change in elevations by playing to two distinctly different plateaus. What makes this the work of art was how he used the downslop from the first plateau to entice the accomplished player to try and bite off more than they might chew so to speak. He did this by placing that fairway bunker at the outer limits of a long carry.

The result was that 3 choices faced the player on the tee. First, do I play safe and drive straight and leave a very long second shot to the upper plateau, guaranteeing a short third that will have to come into a green that slopes directly away and bring the front bunker into play. Second, do I attempt a long draw that will allow the ball to turn around the corner and allow for a second shot that can be placed up right of the green where an open and easy pitch can be played. Third, it enables the player to ask the question, how strong do I feel today? It gives him the option of attempting to carry the bunker altogether, and land hard so that the ball kicks off the gathering downslope and is propeled far down the fairway. From that point a new set of shots become available, including the ability for the heroic play in an attempt to reach the hole in two with a perfectly played fairway wood/long iron. Of course, a poorly played drive, especially where the latter two options were being attempted, would result in potential severe penalties of either rough or sand.

All of these options because of a carefully placed bunker.

In the renovation/restoration (it was both) to the course, this bunker was moved forward and slightly right. As a result, what was a 230 yard carry from the lower tee became a 270 yard carry from the new upper one (this tee was made in the 80's by Chuck Workman).

As a result, the choices for the accomplished player dictated by the original design intent of Tilly were RESTORED. As the course was designed to PRIMARILY challenge the best players, the moving of this bunker is NOT a change, but a restoration, and a very good one as it also doesn't impact the play of a lesser player who would never face these decisions anyway.

On another thread, when I mentioned the idea that bunker movement for the sake of shot angle restoration is not a change but could be considered a restoring, Tom Doak stated that he disagreed with the concept of bunker movement as rarely had he seen this done well and usually poorly. This hole may be an exception to that statement or not, I am of the opinion though that it can be done properly and well if the intent of restoring the angle of play is the primary goal.

So to answer your question, I believe one has to take a hard look at individual courses and at times, even holes, to decide whether work done was first a change or restoration and secondly whether or not it was done well.

Finally, and I am not wanting to debate this with you as i respect your right of opinion, but the only true change done to the Black was at the green complex on #18. Frankly, since it was universally accepted that something needed to be done to the hole to bring about as proper a finish to the Open as possible, a change needed to be made. I know that I am in the minority in this, but I think it held up well, being ranked as the 7th most difficult hole for the championship.

Courses such as Baltusrol & Shawnee have been greatly changed over the years, but the same has happened to many a great course. Maybe this leads to my 4th "crime then, and that is the lack of appreciation that players, especially from the 60's onward if not before, have had for the history of the game and the design concepts of the course he is playing or club he belongs to.

It is this attitude that leads to the ego of green committees making changes such as at Tilly's Dellwood where because complaints were made that the greenside bunkers were just too difficult that ALL of them were dug up and moved further away from the greens and made smaller and easier. Today the club is trying to slowly restore what they had destroyed.

So to boil that crime down to as short a phrase as I can, uninformed changes made because of ego and/or lack of understanding of golf course architecture.

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2006, 08:57:34 AM »
Wayne
I think the bulk of the redesign at Columbia was done prior to 1921 (perhaps the same time frame as Westchester). There was one article prior to the US Open (in American Golfer I think) that said the remodeling process began four years prior, which would have been 1917. By early 1920 you see Travis being given credit for the golf course. I suspect the 1921 payments was for some follow up work.

Phillip
You object to the Whitten article giving partial credit to Burbeck, but you have no objection to Tilly's work being redesigned or painted over. Interesting.

What is your opinion of the decision to rebunker many of the greens at Bethpage a la Winged Foot....do you think that was a good idea, and would you recommend other Tilly courses take this course of action?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 08:59:00 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2006, 09:13:27 AM »
Tom, you wrote, "You object to the Whitten article giving partial credit to Burbeck, but you have no objection to Tilly's work being redesigned or painted over. Interesting."

First of all, I NEVER used the word "redesigned" that you are infering that did. I thought I made it quite clear that in my opinion some CHANGES are actually a RESTORAL and should not be viewed as a redesign of either hole or course.

Secondly, I cited Tilly who believed that courses needed occasional changes to deal with either poor original design or technological advancement.

Finally, what has one to do with the other? Whitten gives complete ORIGINAL design credit to Burbeck. That is simply not true and his reasonings for the belief, IMHO, are poorly thought out and researched.

The work on the bunkers at Bethpage by Rees Jones was not to change them to a Winged Foot style; they were originally designed in a similar fashion. He sent the work crews there to study them so that they would have a better understanding of the style that Tilly used at BOTH courses. Remember, these are contractors who never worked with Tilly himself. Careful planning brought about good work.

My one disagreement with the work at Bethpage centers around the green sizes. Yet it is not so much a disagreement per se as it is a discovery of some old photos of the course and further research finds that were unavailable when they did the work that has me convinced that the greens need to be enlarged much further because to where I believe there original boundaries were. If this were done a whole slew (for lack of better terminology) of undulations and severe pin positions would be seen and most would take a different view of how "flat the green surfaces actually are, especially at Open speeds of 13+.

Finally, as far as other Till courses are concerned, they should be taken on an individual basis as to what work should or shouldn't be done.

Great care should be given in considering changes and restorative work and just how far this should go.

For example, If you carefully consider photos of his greens from the time periods when they were first made, rarely, if ever, will you see fringe surrounding them. Is thsi feature desirable today? Should it be re-incorporated into his courses, especially since almost all of todays players can't name a green that they have ever seen that didn't have a fringe?

Easy questions but tough answers.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 09:18:41 AM by Philip Young »

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2006, 09:51:52 AM »
Phil
I believe I read that Rees and David Fay decided at the begining of the project that they were going to redesign the green complexes like WF. In other words bring in flanking bunkers - left and right - closer to the greens on a number of holes. For example the 18th green. Isn't that redesign?

Have the changes at Balturol been redsign or restoral?

Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2006, 10:04:13 AM »
My club has a  nine designd by William Langford and built in 1930 that is a great layout. It is 1 hour from Lawsonia and was done at the same time.

WL provided an 18 design for the course. When the club decided to build the back nine in 1960 they abandoned the Langford plan and hired another architect to design it.


Same original architect and same expansion architect here, Mike, as you know.  We just recently acquired copies of the plans for the original routing thanks to Ron Whitten and Mike DeVries, and it's amazing to see what could have been.  Hopefully somewhere down the line we can bring back as much as possible, although two of the holes have been lost to a neighborhood built well after the plans were drawn up.

It gives me goosebumps to look at the plans for the bunkers and mounds in particular after having played Lawsonia - what a fun course our original could be.

HamiltonBHearst

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2006, 10:12:39 AM »


How much "discovery" did Rees try to do at Bethpage?  He failed on greens expansion because he did not have old photos?  Seems to me that Bethpage has been a highly chronicled course over the years.  

Somehow, I think Rees had a different agenda here.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2006, 10:24:26 AM »
Tom, you asked, "I believe I read that Rees and David Fay decided at the begining of the project that they were going to redesign the green complexes like WF. In other words bring in flanking bunkers - left and right - closer to the greens on a number of holes. For example the 18th green. Isn't that redesign?"

Last first. Yes, the green complex at 18 was redesigned. The course ws not.

You are incorrect in your phraseology of "redesign the green complexes like WF..." REDESIGNING anything other than the 18th green complex was NEVER discussed, mentioned or considered.

Because of poor to no maintenance throughout the years the greenside bunkers drifted away from the greens and in some cases well off the original footprints. You may not be familiar with the procedure they used to correct this problem.

They used a combination of probing down and, where definitive answers could not be found, dig by hand to locate the original pads of the bunkers. Using these they were pulled back into their original locations and dimensions. That is not a change but a restoration.

What rees & Fay discussed was the SCOPE of the work as the USGA was footing the bill. The work was to be limited to the bunker work, repair and lengthening some teeing grounds, fescue planting and the new 18th green complex.

The course then was 95% restored, 4% renovated and 1% changed. Nothing was redesigned including the 18th hole. The change there was a new bunker scheme and green shape with a reduction in green size of approximately 25%. The location of the green and surrounds was not moved an inch, the shot angles into it were not changed. Only the relative difficulty of the hole, now being more difficult, was changed. I don't consider that a redesign, though I am sure you do.    

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2006, 10:32:14 AM »

I believe I read that Rees and David Fay decided at the begining of the project that they were going to redesign the green complexes like WF.

Where did you read that ?
[/color]

In other words bring in flanking bunkers - left and right - closer to the greens on a number of holes. For example the 18th green. Isn't that redesign?

Were the flanking bunkers at 18 brought in ?

Or, was the bunker work at # 18 focused on the front and rear bunker ?
[/color]

Have the changes at Balturol been redsign or restoral?



To understand architecture at Baltusrol you have to understand the culture of the membership at Baltusrol.

With respect to the greens at Baltusrol, they're virtually intact.

You and I have gone through this before.
You think extending the green vis a vis mowing patterns is an alteration, I think otherwise.  As long as the foot pad and the internal contouring isn't tampered with, I don't think it's an alteration, rather, fine tuning or tinkering.  Or, recapturing what may have been lost vis a vis green shrinkage.

However, Baltusrol marches to a different drummer.

They solicit and covet Major Championships and as such, modify their golf course to accomodate them.

In preparation for the PGA they replanted their roughs with bluegrass, changing the fairway lines (narrowing)  In addition, they were thinking about repositioning the bunkers to match the new fairway lines.  A concept that brought gasps of horror from the GCA.com'ers who attended a get together at Baltusrol three years ago.

But, other than tee extensions, the course remains pretty much intact.

No green complexes have been altered.
Some bunkers have been added (# 18)
The fairways have been narrowed (PGA & USOPENS)

But, other than that no substantive architectural features have been destroyed or altered...... to date.

What the future holds is anybody's guess.
[/color]
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 10:34:39 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2006, 10:41:28 AM »
Hamilton, you wrote, "How much "discovery" did Rees try to do at Bethpage?  He failed on greens expansion because he did not have old photos?  Seems to me that Bethpage has been a highly chronicled course over the years... Somehow, I think Rees had a different agenda here."

I strongly disagree with your perceptions and conclusions.

Bethpage has not been chronicled over the years well at all. Can you find any photographs of the course from the 30's & 40's other than the few that have been reprinted in the Tilly trilogy? I've spent years looking for any and all and can attest that any out there that I haven't seen (and I'm sure there are some) have been well hidden.

If you walk the halls of the Bethpage clubhouse you will see a handful of photographs that are on the wall. These are the ONLY ONES that the park and New York State possess. In addition, many of these have been mislabeled and hopefully will soon be corrected.

Is the park and State have no photos, blueprints, drawings, etc... where would you expect Rees to acquire them from? I have personally examined every Newsday, Long Island Press, Brooklyn Eagle, New York Times, New York Daily News, Farmingdale Post and several other local papers and journals. Photographs of the course don't appear in them.

There aren't even articles dealing with local important tournaments as prior to the 2002 Open, the Black hosted a grand total of 2, yes, 2 tournaments since the day it opened. These are the 1989 & 2001 MGA Met Open championships. Even the Lonmg Island Open isn't contested on it, but is played on the Red Course instead.

If anyone has a "different agenda" on this might it not be you? Are you a "Rees-basher" or at least a non-fan of his? I don't mean that as a personal affront, but due to the large number of them on GCA, it is a reasonable question to ask.

Actually, they did a great deal of work in trying to get the restoration done faithfully and correct, especially where the bunkers were concerned. All the old photos in the world can only hint at without ever showing the footprint of the bunkers. Only probing, which they did, or digging down by hand, which they also did, can do this definitively.

T_MacWood

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2006, 02:10:28 PM »
Phil
Not only was the 18th greenside bunkering changed, a good number of holes were also changed to some degree. 4-Green bunker significantly altered in shape, 6-both greenside bunkers altered in shape, 7-Given the Winged Foot treatment, 9-Leftside bunker changed slightly, 10-greenside bunkers altered in shape, 11-WF treatment, 12-Leftside bunker altered significantly in shape-WF treatment, 13-greenside bunkers new, 14-new bunker, 15- all new bunker on the right, semi-WF, 16-rightside bunker altered in shape, 18-WF treatment.

That is lot of changes, some significant, some more cosmetic or stylistic, but the net result is more Rees and a lot less Tilly, but but loss or change to Tilly doesn't appear to concern you.

Have the changes at Balturol been redsign or restoral?

Pat
I read it in numerous articles and heard it in interviews w/Fay and Rees at the time. Here is one.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:p7F0Y4ELAa8J:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_53/ai_86204916/pg_3+bethpage+restoration+and+winged+foot&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=12&client=safari

The original 18th green had a bunker right front and one behind, Rees chose to add two new bunkers, left and right front.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 02:11:19 PM by Tom MacWood »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Morrissett's Ten Great Architectural Crimes of the 20thC
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2006, 02:20:49 PM »
Phil
Not only was the 18th greenside bunkering changed, a good number of holes were also changed to some degree. 4-Green bunker significantly altered in shape, 6-both greenside bunkers altered in shape, 7-Given the Winged Foot treatment, 9-Leftside bunker changed slightly, 10-greenside bunkers altered in shape, 11-WF treatment, 12-Leftside bunker altered significantly in shape-WF treatment, 13-greenside bunkers new, 14-new bunker, 15- all new bunker on the right, semi-WF, 16-rightside bunker altered in shape, 18-WF treatment.

That is lot of changes, some significant, some more cosmetic or stylistic, but the net result is more Rees and a lot less Tilly, but but loss or change to Tilly doesn't appear to concern you.

Have the changes at Balturol been redsign or restoral?

Pat
I read it in numerous articles and heard it in interviews w/Fay and Rees at the time. Here is one.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:p7F0Y4ELAa8J:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_6_53/ai_86204916/pg_3+bethpage+restoration+and+winged+foot&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=12&client=safari

The original 18th green had a bunker right front and one behind, Rees chose to add two new bunkers, left and right front.

Tom

You have continued to ignore the facts given to you by people who know the golf course and its history a hell of a lot better then you do.  Just because you continue to post this nonsense about courses being redesigned will never make it a fact.

Could you please document each of these changes to Bethpage Black (other then #18) by showing us side by side aerial photographs of the course in 1938, just PRIOR to Rees doing his work (anywhere from the 1980's to 1997 would do) and the current or 2002 status of the golf course.  Let's let the readers decide so they don't have to take anyone elses word for what you call a REDESIGN.

Thank you
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 02:26:45 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back