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Joshua Pettit

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Robert Hunter Society
« on: July 06, 2006, 03:08:14 AM »
Hello everyone,

This is to inform you of the inception of The Robert Hunter Society.  The website is www.roberthuntersociety.org.  The full website will be coming soon.  I hope to establish a network of fellow Robert Hunter enthusiasts.  I thought it would be a good idea to have some way that we can all share our thoughts and information regarding Hunter. Who knows, maybe someday I will host a golf outing.  Also I anticipate the website being a source for information about his life and various careers for people interested in learning about him.  The website will primarily be focused on his golf architecture career but will definitely not be limited to that.  I know some of you are already quite knowledgeable about Hunter and I am looking forward to getting your input.  Please email me with any questions or suggestions.  Much appreciated.

Josh Pettit
"The greatest and fairest of things are done by nature, and the lesser by art."

Phil_the_Author

Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2006, 03:23:55 AM »
Josh,

I love the photo!

GregRamsay

Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2006, 03:45:01 AM »
Josh, was Robert Hunter related to/a member of the Hunter family dynasty from Prestwick GC?  

This included James Hunter who married Old Tom Morris' daughter, Charlie Hunter a prominent player in the late 1800's professional, Harry Hunter the Pro at Royal Cinque Ports and his son William the 1921 Amateur winner, Willie Hunter of Riviera Country Club fame, and another James Hunter who was the first golf professional in Tasmania!

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2006, 04:13:38 AM »
Greg,
No, he wasn't.

Here's more of a bio on Hunter:

Robert Hunter was born in Terre Haute, Indiana, in 1874. After graduating from Indiana University he moved to Chicago and in 1896 was appointed organizing secretary of the city's Board of Charities. His work brought him into contact with Jane Addams and he became a resident of Hull House where she joined other social reformers such as Ellen Gates Starr, Edith Abbott, Grace Abbott, Mary McDowell, Florence Kelley, Julia Lathrop, Alice Hamilton and Sophonisba Breckinridge at the settlement.

In 1899 Hunter travelled to London and became a resident of the Toynbee Hall settlement. While in England Hunter met the socialist leader Keir Hardie and the anarchist, Peter Kropotkin.

Hunter returned to Chicago and served as chairman of the City Homes Association. He published Tenement Conditions in Chicago (1901) and the following year moved to New York where he became head of the University Settlement House. In 1903 Hunter married Caroline Stokes, the sister of the wealthy industrialist, J. G. Phelps Stokes (1872-1960).

In 1904 Hunter published his book Poverty. Based largely on his experiences in Chicago and New York, Hunter, who considered himself to be a sociologist, attempted: (i) "to define and measure poverty"; (ii) "to describe some of its evils"; (iii) "to point out certain remedial actions"; and (iv) "to show that the evils of poverty are procreative". Hunter argued in his book that there were over 10 million people living in poverty in America.

Hunter, his brother-in-law, J. G. Phelps Stokes, and his sister-in-law, Rose Pastor Stokes, all joined the American Socialist Party in 1905.

Hunter had his work published in a wide-variety of newspapers and journals. His books included Socialist at Work (1908), Violence and the Labor Movement (1914), Labor in Politics (1915), Why We Fail as Christians (1919), Inflation and Revolution (1934) and Revolution: Why, How, When? (1940). Robert Hunter died in Santa Barbara on 15th May, 1942.

Mark_Guiniven

Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2006, 06:14:47 AM »
This one was up for auction at PBA Galleries a while back. Don't know if anyone has a good scan though.



"1st Tee Cypress Point"
Chandler Egan
Cam. Puget
Robert Hunter
Dr. Paul Hunter
Joe Hixon
Jack Neville

Who's that next to RH in your photo Josh?

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 07:41:36 AM »
Great photo, Marc. Is it shot by Julian Graham (who did the pictures in Shackelford's CPC book)?

If this website would have been around back then, I'll guess this picture would have looked like:

« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 07:52:33 AM by Eric Franzen »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 09:57:42 AM »
Josh,

I am just curious, what is it about Robert Hunter that prompts you to form an honorary society?  What do you believe is his legacy?

Tommy,

Thanks for providing Mr. Hunter's bio.  However, it leaves an impression that I believe is erroneous.  I read somewhere, perhaps your friend Geoff Shackelford can cite the source, that Hunter repudiated socialism later in his life.  I think he died believing that a vibrant market economy and education were key to alleviating poverty.

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 10:09:41 AM »
Lou,

I am somewhat sure that Hunter's changed opinion about socialism is mentioned in "The Life & Work of Doctor MacKenzie".


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 10:22:22 AM »
Eric, your photoshop is going to become a cult thing on GCA. ;) ;D

Lou and Eric, I also read that Hunter turned away from the Socialist philosophy.  Yet, I don't think one can go so far as to imply he would have adopted the notion of greed is good, and the no child left behind mentality and methodology as answers to his main concern - poverty and its corrosive effects on our society and the human condition.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2006, 10:54:41 AM »
Dick,

I never implied anything, nor for my comments to jumpstart a tit-for-tat on the relative merits of socialism vs. capitalism.  I am genuinely interested on what prompts the formation of this society and thought that the bio Tommy provided left out a key fact.  I wish I had a recollection of where I read the references to markets and education by Hunter, though I don't think it was in Geoff's book.  Neither Hunter, to the best of my knowledge, nor I said anything about endorsing greed or your highly partisan remark about the bi-partisan No Child Left Behind program.  I am sorry that you felt compelled to link markets and education accordingly.  

   

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2006, 11:14:40 AM »
What courses was Hunter involved with other than the Valley Club of Montecito and Cypress Point?

I would be quite willing to join a Hunter outing at either.  ;D

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2006, 11:21:05 AM »
Hunter was also involved with Chandler Eagan's re-design of Pebble Beach in the late 1920's

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2006, 11:40:57 AM »
Eric,

There are two and a half pages on Robert Hunter in Shackelford's "Alister MacKenzie's Cypress Point Club".  It is not where I got my reference to markets and education from.  In the context of Hunter's 1940 book "Revolution: Why, How, When", it states that "In a complete reversal of his earlier socialist sentiments, Hunter became an activist in righ-wing causes".

According to Geoff's book, Hunter (with MacKenzie) finished off MPCC, helped plan and build CPC, helped oversee the reconstruction of PBGL for the '29 US Am, and was involved with Meadow, Green Hills, and Northwood.  He apparently had a large part in the Valley Club, and much earlier oversaw the reconstruction of Berkeley CC.

Perhaps Geoff can chime in and opine about Hunter's level of involvement at these places.  I haven't seen any references to his work as a solo practitioner.  His major contribution to golf seems to be his book "The Links".    
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 11:41:54 AM by Lou_Duran »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2006, 11:45:57 AM »
Hunter finished the job on the back nine at the Monterey Peninsula Country Club's Dunes Course after Raynors death. As he had some sort of partnership with MacKenzie at the time, many believe the tenth hole of the course is attributable to the good Doctor.

Bob

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2006, 11:56:21 AM »
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 11:56:56 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2006, 12:05:58 PM »
Eric,

There are two and a half pages on Robert Hunter in Shackelford's "Alister MacKenzie's Cypress Point Club".  It is not where I got my reference to markets and education from.  In the context of Hunter's 1940 book "Revolution: Why, How, When", it states that "In a complete reversal of his earlier socialist sentiments, Hunter became an activist in righ-wing causes".

Lou,

I was referring to Doak's "The Life & Work of Doctor MacKenzie". I vaguely remember that I read a passage about Hunter's shifting political views in there.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2006, 12:15:17 PM »
Bill McBride,

I'll join you, though we won't share (your snoring is intolerable).

I know of your affection for The Valley Club.  But have you played Meadow?  I was there mid-way Mike DeVries outstanding restoration, and even with a wrenched back and half swings, I fell in love with the course.  The location of the driving range is the only negative I could find.  I can't wait to go back and see the finished work.

Bob Huntley,

Now that you've seen more of Raynor, how much do you see of his work at your Dunes course?  How about MacKenzie's and Hunter's?  Is there still talk about a major renovation similar to that on your Shore course?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2006, 12:27:16 PM »
Eric,

Thanks for pointing that out.  Most of my golf library, including Tom's book, has been packed.  I am fairly sure that it did not contain Hunter's proposed prescriptions for minimizing poverty.

Jim,

Thanks for the link to the library site.  I am assuming that one would have to go to Indianapolis with the proper credentials to sift through the materials.  They are not available in pdf format by chance?

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2006, 12:28:05 PM »
Dick,

I never implied anything, nor for my comments to jumpstart a tit-for-tat on the relative merits of socialism vs. capitalism.  I am genuinely interested on what prompts the formation of this society and thought that the bio Tommy provided left out a key fact.  I wish I had a recollection of where I read the references to markets and education by Hunter, though I don't think it was in Geoff's book.  Neither Hunter, to the best of my knowledge, nor I said anything about endorsing greed or your highly partisan remark about the bi-partisan No Child Left Behind program.  I am sorry that you felt compelled to link markets and education accordingly.  
   

Note in his bio that Hunter was anti-New Deal, which considering that program's success in the 30s would have placed him in the vast minority (except amongst his golfing pals at CPC). If you are of the conservative bent, you could stretch a point and argue that it lead to Johnson's Great Society and the welfare abuses that Reagan successfully campaigned against during the 80s...

No Child Left Behind is a great concept. The only hope of it being correctly executed is if we elect a Democratic president. I'm not of the opinion that one of the criterions for getting this Federal education funding is so that the Armed Forces can get hold of every child's home address and contact details. That's how they directly put the squeeze on low-income kids to enter the military using the '50k for College' pitch. (According to one of my relatives who just spent 18 months in Iraq, interacting with locals over there was a walk in the park compared to dealing with the people who AREN"T be paying his college fees after his 4 1/2 yrs military service.)

BTW-I'm not sure if it's global warming or not, but it seems like people wore more clothes back then and, I think, looked the better for it.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 08:17:46 PM by Anthony Butler »
Next!

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2006, 12:36:10 PM »
Regarding Hunter and Berkeley CC(Mira Vista) he was one of the principal members that not only helped in locating the site but also drew up plans and mouldings of the greens. He put in a lot of time getting things figured out and even hiring a golf pro from Wales that was quite a story in and of itself. Judging from his choice he knew what he was getting when he hired Sam Whiting.  William Watson was brought in to look over the property and go over Hunter's plans. Watson made some changes but for the most part it was a Hunter course.

After many years Hunter had finally managed to get his close friend Walter Travis to make a visit out West to play the course and hopefully stay as his health was starting to get worse.

What is interesting is that by 1931 the club published a 10 year anniversary book and left out any mention of Hunter but mangaged to mention that Travis was there. Have not been able to figure out what happened. From what I have gathered on Hunter he would stick pretty close to his guns so a guess would be he had a falling out with the club.

Hunter's home course was Wee Burn and he played alot of golf out on Long Island and at Pinehurst. When he came out west his home course was Claremont. He played at all of the local courses and set a number of course records. He played to a 4 handicap and was as low as a 2 at one point.

Some background on the picture Josh used on the site. That is from a Fathers/Sons tournament at Del Monte in 1928. They were in the area working on Cypress and took the day off to play in the tournament.  The Hunter's won the tournament with a net 66 coming from Jr. I always liked the photo.

Tully


Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2006, 12:51:31 PM »
Sean,

Was this Sam Whiting involved with the Olympic Club's Lake Course?  I am assuming that Mira Vista is still in operation.  Any comments on the golf course?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2006, 01:00:09 PM »
Sean,

I am assuming that Mira Vista is still in operation.  Any comments on the golf course?

Lou - Mira Vista CC is a damn fine course.  It's located in the hills above Berkeley and has some gorgeous views looking down at the bay... It also possesses wonderful greens (in terms of condition anyway), among the smoothest and fastest in the entire Bay Area.  I have no clue as to how much Hunter or the work of any other architect is there today; I can just tell you that what is there today is pretty damn good.  This really is a Bay Area hidden gem that no one ever talks about.

Here's some history, from the club's website...  I surely trust Sean's take, but interesting that the site doesn't mention Hunter at all....

http://www.miravista.org/history.asp

« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 01:03:24 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Sean_Tully

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2006, 01:24:43 PM »
Sean,

Was this Sam Whiting involved with the Olympic Club's Lake Course?  I am assuming that Mira Vista is still in operation.  Any comments on the golf course?

Yep, Whiting was hired to the dismay of some of the locals as they felt the job should have gone to a local. Hunter wrote a response in the paper giving his reasons for hiring Whiting. Whiting was a very good golfer that worked under both J.H. Taylor and Peter Lees, not too shabby. He was released from his duties(and allowed to take the job at OClub) at Berkeley before the course opened as they were delayed by some workers striking. When he went over to Olympic he started making changes there almost immeadiately.

Yes Mira Vista is still in operation and they are in the process of having some work done to the course. I have only seen it once and that was in the middle of heavy rain. they have been taking care of a number of drainage issues in the last number of years that has dramatically improved conditions. Some holes where changed on the front nine(pretty sure it was 1-2-3) but for the most part it is intact. The back nine was a little more open and less confined by homes and trees. I can give you more info after I play the course in the coming weeks.

Tully

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2006, 01:42:38 PM »
Thanks for the information guys.  Mira Vista looks very pleasant and the kind of course I would enjoy.  It doesn't appear like I am going to be a Californian anytime soon, but Huck, how about arranging a match up there some time?  Is it real exclusive like SFGC, or more proleteriat like the "O" Club?

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Robert Hunter Society
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2006, 02:09:37 PM »
Bob Huntley,

Now that you've seen more of Raynor, how much do you see of his work at your Dunes course?  How about MacKenzie's and Hunter's?  Is there still talk about a major renovation similar to that on your Shore course?

Lou,

Quite frankly, I do believe that Raynor's Dunes Course at MPCC that I played for twenty-five years prior to Rees Jones' renovation, bears small relationship to that of Yale and Fishers Island. For one thing the greens were half the size of the aforementioned courses and it was much shorter. I can vouch for the last statement because my partner, Ray Leach, in the 1983 Invitational at the club, drove three par fours with a 42 inch persimmon headed club and wound balata Titlists. His treatment of the 11th and 12th holes, his elimination of the abysmally poor par three 14th green site by moving it to the waters edge were strokes of genius. Anyone who has played the holes must agree.




No matter what the carping of Rees Jones on this site he did a superb job for us on the Dunes.

Lou, I don't know to that which you refer when you speak of another renovation. Why on earth do we need one? It is a pity we did not sand-cap the place five years ago but that is the only thing that I think would add to the course.

Bob

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