The best value course in the world? Silloth pics.

[Ryan Coles]

I played Silloth the other day and can confirm the annual green fee of £440.

The club captain (who was in the lounge polishing the silverware from the trophy cabinet) told me he was always glad to see visitors as income from that source helped to keep fees at that their current level. He also mentioned that more than half of the members lived in the Carlisle area.

The club is also offering a new membership package of £440 for annual fees, £300 as a joining fee (£100 of which goes towards a bar tab) and the entitlement to invite up to six (or was it eight?) guests for a free round.

I thought this represented terrific value, regardless of how bleak the town might appear to be for some.

That'll be the guest income given away for the year then.

[Marc Haring]

'Gloria Gaynors' in tough locations

Ha ha....

My one trip to play Silloth was a spur of the moment detour on the way up to Scotland and it was quite a detour...... Funnily enough we arrived and met up with an Ozzie couple who had also made the trip with a few classics in mind to play. Man that town was shitty though. Couldn't get out of there quick enough. Loved the course but it seemed to be a little back to front with the best holes coming early on and some mundane ones in the middle next to a field of statics!!!!

[Duncan Cheslett]

Silloth attracts a lot of visiting groups from clubs in the north- west; at least three parties from Reddish Vale went there this year. It tends to be paired with Brampton and/or Carlisle GC, with accommodation being found in Carlisle itself, the city apparently offering ample opportunities for hard-core debauchery. Staider tastes are catered for by a couple of decent Wetherspoons and a wide choice of curry house.

Silloth and Harlech are probably the most popular destinations for groups of serious golfers from our area, both being not much more than a couple of hours away.  'Remote' to us would be St Enodoc or Deal!

[Mark Pearce]

From Newcastle Silloth is about the same travel time as North Berwick and is significantly cheaper and easier to get a time in the summer.  As comfortably the best course in England North of the Lancashire links it has a wide catchment area for occasional guest play.

[Sean_A]

Having a catchment area doesn't mean a club is consistently grabbing the desired catch.  Silloth's design is easily good enough to attract people and the price is good.  So what is the problem?  It would seem the town is a major deterrent.  So what is the issue with day trippers?  Surely they don't care about the town and this must be the biggest source of visitor revenue.  It would also seem the detour off the motorway is an issue...difficult to include Silloth in a north/south drive-by itinerary.  Is it as simple as this?  Are there too many really good courses which are easily accessible and linked with nearby courses which make it difficult for Silloth to grab the overseas tourist eye?   

Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Why do you think there is a problem?  This thread seems to have taken the news that the hotel is for sale and turned it into the club being in crisis without any evidence whatsoever.

[Jonathan Davison]

I don't think the club is in crisis. They are improving the drainage this year, outfalling some lows which held water in the past. Hopefully they will make a few changes to the course also in the next few years.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

Why do you think there is a problem?  This thread seems to have taken the news that the hotel is for sale and turned it into the club being in crisis without any evidence whatsoever.

Mark,

you are spot on. Most clubs in the UK have scraped by financially for most of their existence. Also the average club usually gets 5 to 10 greenfees through the main season so do not rely on this revenue.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Why do you think there is a problem?  This thread seems to have taken the news that the hotel is for sale and turned it into the club being in crisis without any evidence whatsoever.

Mark

No crisis, but some concern.  I sense the club would like more money coming through the door.  To figure out how to get more money, its often not a bad plan to figure out the weak links.  Is the situation beyond Silloth's control, as some suggest, or can Silloth do something to get more business? 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I can't think of many UK clubs that wouldn't like a bit more income.

Silloth will never be a holiday destination.  Most visitors will be day visitors.  BUDA in Silloth worked fine because the club is a good club, with decent food and seems to be where most local members go for a local evening out.  And the hotel is a 5 minute walk from the club.  It is just withing striking distance of Carlisle (think St Andrews to Lundin).  Most of its visitor play (like all but the elite clubs and holiday destinations) will always be local (say up to 2 hours drive).  I have never been on a golfing trip where anyone cared where the nearest lapdancing club was.  I can say with confidence that if that's one of your criteria, then Silloth is not for you.  For keen golfers who want a good course, decent beer and food then it's fine.  I wouldn't base a tour in Silloth but I will continue to make the daytrip a couple of times a year.  As somewhere to play on the way up to Scotland it is a bit off the M6 but well worth the detour.

The club can't change the town but it can continue to raise its profile amongst the golfing public and through the various guides and rankings.  It certainly does well enough in those.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I played Silloth for the first time yesterday in my knock-out match with Niall C and was blown away by the course. It is of the very highest quality and was in fantastic condition even as we emerge from another horribly wet winter. FBD commented that if Silloth was in Fife it would be top 10 in Scotland.

Four of us met up for the day and we played 30 holes - we could easily have done two full rounds with lunch. My pal and I were back in Stockport by 9.30pm and I'm sure that both Niall and and Marty were back in their respective homes earlier than that.

So include the NW conurbations and the Scottish central belt and you have maybe 20m people within reach of a full day's golf at Silloth without having to overnight anywhere. It is nowhere near as "remote" as people imagine.

The clubhouse is very well appointed, the catering excellent, and there is no appearance whatsoever of a club struggling. I'm sure that they would welcome extra income, but they obviously don't need it. Rather, they clearly revel in their growing reputation of being the best value golf destination in the world. This is their USP!

Having said that, if the club introduced dormy accommodation on site they would undoubtedly do well from it. The town is dreadful, and commercially at least the golf club would do well to insulate itself from it. Couple that with a country (or second club) membership deal appealing to golfers in the 150 minute catchment area and at least 2 or our 4-ball yesterday would sign up in a flash!

Rather than Silloth being too cheap, we came away with the conviction that clearly most other high profile courses are far more expensive than they need to be.

[Marty Bonnar]

What Duncan said!


I note from the OP, that Ed paid £35, 11 years ago. We paid exactly the same yesterday...


I absolutely loved the course and came away with one over-riding thought, which was that it presented a number of golfing challenges in combinations I've never seen before. Interestingly perched greens, a couple of what I can only describe as 'bottle' holes, (I might be right or wrong about that!), a lot of decision-making regarding both length and positioning off the tee, some absolutely terrific angular carries and lots more.


It did feel like a bit of a biblical pilgrimage getting there, having left the house at 06:30 (early for me!) and having to negotiate both the Forth Bridge roadworks and the bloody Edinburgh city bypass, but it was totally worthwhile and I'd certainly be up for seeing it in high summer condition. It was especially nice seeing it played by one of our group, +3 handicapper Adam who showed what a great golfer can do on an architecturally brilliant golf course.


All in all, I can't recommend it highly enough for the aficionado. Go see Silloth!


Cheers,
F.

[JJShanley]

I played Silloth with my father last summer, and enjoyed it tremendously.  I might shift a two tees on the front nine to remove a few walkbacks from green-to-next-tee, 6 and 10, but other than that I think very highly of the course.  Well worth the drive from Edinburgh and two night stay.

[Duncan Cheslett]

+3 handicapper Adam

+4 actually!  He's two good rounds away from +5, which I believe places him among the very top amateurs in the country.


I wouldn't exactly call him a "flat belly" either!


We may all be seeing more of him. So much did he enjoy yesterday that he's asked me to arrange access for him to this forum...

[Marty Bonnar]

+3 handicapper Adam

+4 actually!  He's two good rounds away from +5, which I believe places him among the very top amateurs in the country.


I wouldn't exactly call him a "flat belly" either!


We may all be seeing more of him. So much did he enjoy yesterday that he's asked me to arrange access for him to this forum...

Well, husha my mouth! 
Highlight for me was I happened to be standing about twenty yards behind him when he boomed a driver from the deck on the approach to 13. Awesome. Think he birdied that hole too?
Be great to have him aboard the good ship HMS Golfclubatlas!


F.

[Niall C]

I’ve had a great many happy days at Silloth and yesterday was one of the best with some great company as well as some great golf courtesy of Adam. Not much more to say about the course that hasn’t been said but I will suggest that it is high time Tom D paid another visit and re-assessed his pitifully low CG rating. Clearly he was harder to please back in the early 80’s.
 
Actually, thinking about it there are a couple of comments I’d make about the course. First is the club have replaced nearly all their ash paths with green matting. Not sure I think it an improvement although equally I don’t find it all that offensive although I now some aren’t fond of it.
 
The second comment relates to the right hand greenside bunker on the par 3 12^th having been rebuilt using ecobunker or some such product. The layers are much thinner than normal rivetting, and to my eye it looks strange. Also bizarrely when you stand in the middle of what is a fairly small deep pot bunker and speak down the way you get an echo. Perhaps it should be called echobunker.     
 
Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

I checked my CG's earlier and the original had Silloth at 5, with the new version moving it up to a 6, with 7,6,7 as the other three opinions.
Fair?


Cheers,
M.

[JJShanley]

I checked my CG's earlier and the original had Silloth at 5, with the new version moving it up to a 6, with 7,6,7 as the other three opinions.
Fair?


Cheers,
M.

Given that a significant chunk of us would have to make a special trip to play it, and that we do, 7 strikes me as more appropriate.


I play a 6, to which folk come from points north, south, east, and west, driving up to three hours.  I think highly of my home course, but I would sooner make the drive (or recommend it) from Edinburgh to Silloth, than I would Chicago to South Bend.

[Niall C]

I've never really been able to get my head round how Tom marks it in terms of travel distances and how far folk would go etc. I mean does that change from central Scotland with dozens of top courses within easy drive to say some place in the remote part of Canada ? Don't know. Therefore I just tend to measure a particular course against other similar ones that have been rated. In that respect Silloth is at least a 9 in my book but of course I'm hugely biased.


Niall

[Duncan Cheslett]

You are very biased Niall.


Silloth is at least an 8 - possibly a 9...


I have Formby as an 8. My feeling after yesterday is that Silloth is better. I will know for sure on Thursday.


I'm having a good week! 

[Sean_A]

I agree with Doak...6...could go higher with more plays.  I have said it before, I use Pennard as one of the measuring sticks for these 2nd tier courses and I think it is comfortably better than Silloth for a few reasons...but I am not completely convinced Pennard is a 7. That said, I also think Formby (I mention it because someone else did) is far better than Silloth...different league really...yet I hesitate to push for 8. It doesn't much matter though, Silloth is plenty good so its all good.


Ciao

[Duncan Cheslett]

i think we can rule out a 6...


... and a 9.


Silloth is either a 7 or an 8.

I caught it on a lovely day with the gorse in bloom, very affable company and not too much wind, so I can't help but be slanted towards an 8.


Tom Doak says that Silloth very nearly made the "Gourmet's Choice" section of CG.  It would not have been out of place.

[Marty Bonnar]

I forgot to mention the CG 'blue box' statement. I'm with you - an 8 looks about right.


F.

[Rich Goodale]

Best value course in the world?


YES!


7 or 8 on the Doak Scale is right.


Other courses mentioned on this thread do not even come close.

[Niall C]

Sean
 
I agree, Silloth is in a different league to Formby
 
Duncan
 
That was a decent enough breeze on Monday. Bear in mind the plus 4 handicapper used a 7 iron to hit it stiff on the 120 yard 9th hole. Not sure about you but I used a 5 iron on the same hole to get it to the front of the green.
 
Reading over again the CG definitions that you posted, I’m still struggling to see how it can be rated so lowly.
 
6 - clearly way better than a 6, no need to discuss.
 
7 – well, all four of us travelled well over 100 miles to play it on Monday and were delighted with it so it passes that part of being a 7. As for the other criteria;
 
Soundly designed ? – not entirely sure what that means but I’d say yes
 
Interesting holes ? – yes, and then some.
 
Good course conditioning ? – yes, considering we are not really out of winter yet, it is in very good condition. Not only that but I’ve always loved the set up where it gives an infinite variety of recovery shots that are mostly playable.
 
Pretty setting ? – yes, some may have derogatory things to say about the town but the internal views on the course are terrific while the external views are mostly pretty scenic.
 
So it's at least a 7.
 
8 - "One of the very best courses in the region and worth a special trip to see" - let's firstly define region. In a UK context you would normally take that to mean Cumbria. From a US centric perspective that could mean anything from UK, to Europe, to the Rest of the World. Given the abundance of quality golf in this small island I suggest that we go on the basis of NE of England. Is Silloth one of the very best courses in the NE of England ?
 
I can't compare to Hoylake, Lytham etc since I haven't played them but I have played Formby which is a lovely course but Silloth is clearly a couple of notches above. I've also played all the Open rota courses in Scotland and I'd humbly suggest that Silloth could more than hold its own with them so likely to be one of the very best in NE England. On that basis it is at least an 8 IMO.
 
9 - "An outstanding course - certainly one of the best in the world - with no weaknesses" - this is where it gets a bit tricky. How many people have played enough of the acknowledged greats to make the assertion that it's "certainly one of the best in the world". I haven't but Tom has and he gave it a 6/7.
 
However it is certainly outstanding. I think I've played enough quality courses to state that. So, are there any weaknesses ? 
 
Probably but I’m not sure what they are. The 10^th is perhaps the least non-championship hole but is being non-championship really a bad thing ? Blind approach shots at 1^st, 7^th and 14^th maybe ? Semi-blind shots at other holes. Are they really weaknesses ? I suppose that depends on your outlook. If you are a card carrying rater who has only played it once you will probably be judging it on whether it is a par 72, with 4 par 5’s and 4 par 3’s, holes in different directions and all that guff, then I suspect it will be judged a weakness. For those that aren’t judging the course by the standard textbook method and play the course on a regular basis then you’d probably think some of those holes are some of the better ones on the course.
 
Again however I come back to comparing Silloth to other higher ranked courses, courses where I see obvious weaknesses but that somehow these courses are judged as having none. The 9^th at TOC springs to mind. What hole at Silloth is weaker than that ? None would be my answer but TOC is of course higher ranked. I can only come to the conclusion that Silloth is at least a 9.
 
10 – is it perfect ? No, the 16^th green is rubbish.
 
Niall