The best value course in the world? Silloth pics.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Ed
Great pics and a terrific looking course, very economical with the bunkering, if not with the paths!
And a course where Mackenzie did a bit of work as well.
Neil

[Ed Tilley]

Bump due to interest in Cumbria courses.

[Josh Stevens]

Suffers somewhat from it being a rather ugly town that was built to service sea trade into the Solway firth.  and as you mention, it is not actually on the way anywhere, and takes quite a detour to get there.  I played it a few times when I was holidaying in the lakes district and loved it.  yes, very underrated

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sad about its location and how little it charges. I think there might just be enough support to keep this course alive with volunteers, but it must be a strong candidate for closure.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Shhhh!

This should be a bucket list course. Please don't let the world in on it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sad about its location and how little it charges. I think there might just be enough support to keep this course alive with volunteers, but it must be a strong candidate for closure.

Adrian, I'll defer to your greater course business knowledge but do you really think so?

One way or another, I would have thought that keeping a links course in Top 100 GB&I open should be manageable. In fact, it might be worth tracking what the first Top 100 course to close will be. None to date? My money is on a modern parkland with extortionate operating costs. That said, I do know of one or two high profile links working on the bread line.

Pity Silloth is a mundane town / village. Are there any lovely spots on the coast nearby?

[Mark Pearce]

Silloth is the best course for miles around.  The town is drab but the club always seems busy, perhaps in part as a result.  It always strikes me as having a strong membership.  Not every course in the UK depends on visitor play to survive but even there I think Silloth does better than many.

[Tim Leahy]

What do the greens stimp at a true links course like this?

[Jon Wiggett]

Sad about its location and how little it charges. I think there might just be enough support to keep this course alive with volunteers, but it must be a strong candidate for closure.

Adrian, I'll defer to your greater course business knowledge but do you really think so?

One way or another, I would have thought that keeping a links course in Top 100 GB&I open should be manageable. In fact, it might be worth tracking what the first Top 100 course to close will be. None to date? My money is on a modern parkland with extortionate operating costs. That said, I do know of one or two high profile links working on the bread line.

Pity Silloth is a mundane town / village. Are there any lovely spots on the coast nearby?

Ally,

I do not think that there is any danger of the club closing but I am sure Adrian has his reasons for believing a club that has survived for over 120 years will go to the wall. It has probably remained as it is because it is a bit out of the way. Much as many of the courses in northern Scotland.

Jon

Jon

[Duncan Cheslett]

I think Silloth does just fine.  It's nowhere near as remote as some people seem to think; Carlisle is a decent sized minor city and provincial centre and is only half an hour away. The is also plenty of 'old money' in the area.  Silloth GC certainly isn't dependent on the town of Silloth for it's membership.

It's also on the doorstep of England's most popular tourist area. If they needed more income from green fees I'm sure they'd put the price up!

[Sean_A]

I don't think there is any question Silloth would like more visitor money (the house and course could do with some investment), but I would be surprised if the club is in serious financial trouble.  I always thought that it may be a good investment to build a dormy house. The town is so dire that 1-2 night packages may be an enticement for golfers to veer off the M6 or get Midlanders in.  It seems to work quite well at Aberdovey and Harlech (towns aren't up to much, but aren't ugly like Silloth)...courses which are well away from the motorway system, but very popular with Midlanders. 

Tim - links greens usually run around 7-9.  Some of the big guns keep em' quicker, but its almost never that one could say links greens are fast.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - That's how I started looking at this thread. The 22 room en suite Golf Hotel is for sale and its 250 yards from the 1st tee. It could fit with our portfolio for our golf holidays. It is £500,000 for a lot of property....so something is wrong,  I am not sure many of our customers would want to golf in Carlisle, if they have driven that far I think they might go a wee bit further so for that reason I am out.

Their membership fees are about £440 per year that baffles me. Are the locals just begged out, that is crazy cheap and the £$£$£$ don't stack up. I don't know how they can make it work.

Top 100 golf courses can go just as easy. Location becomes a tighter marker than the product.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Location is first, Adrian. But operating costs and quality are two and three. It's the courses with none of these attributes that go first. Silloth should have 2 from 3.

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

£440 for membership may seem crazy cheap to you but compared to Dornoch it might seem quite expensive. Not everywhere is Bristol and suspect £440 is the a rate that is correct for that area. After all they have had 122 years to fine tune it.

I agree that £500K seems quite good for a 22 room en-suite hotel but then it might need some money spending on it. If your concept is sound then whether you buy and renovate or new build it will work however 22 rooms are a lot to fill IMO

Jon

[Sean_A]

Adrian

There is something funny going on.  Not that many years ago the club was tight with the hotel offering very good stay and play packages.  Maybe a new owner came in and nixed that.  In any case, the hotel needs a refurb and there are a lot of rooms to fill, but there has to be some signs of life before someone will spend real money on it.  Honestly, Silloth is one of the worst golf towns.  Its something when Seascale is a nicer place 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

£440 is significantly more than Goswick and Crail.  I have never been to Silloth and thought it was quiet.  The hotel is a problem because there is only one reason to visit Silloth - golf.  Very few courses anywhere attract enough visitors to keep a hotel of that size on their own.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The Hotel has had the refurb, (to 12 of the 22 rooms) looks really good on the 360 tours on their website. It is turning over £450K per year which should stack up. Though the accounts show most of income is from food, drinks with only a quarter coming from the rooms. It would not take much to turn that around, its probably only 12-16 per week. A 22 room hotel is tiny. I have not been there but take your word that the town is *******. A course up to 30 minutes away that is ok would help but if Maryport is not much then that would be an inhibitor. You would get some happy to double up at Silloth, but on the whole its a minus.

Thinking outside the box those travelling North would opt to take the 7 or 8 Scottish Golf Destinations before they ticked off Silloth & Maryport, unless price was a big price factor in which case the golf would become less of a factor and so the nightlife more important (which you have zeroed). Silloth therefore is more of a destination stop perhaps on the way up to Scotland, which is what our club did this year. Silloth- North Berwick - Gullane - Notts.

Silloth golf club or the wealthy members of it should buy The Golf Hotel.

[Martin Toal]

What do the greens stimp at a true links course like this?

I was a member at Silloth for a few years. The greens are not fast in the US sense, probably about 9 or so, but with slopes and wind, you can have some ticklish putts. The greens are generally pretty good and roll true.

[Sean_A]

Adrian

There is nothing in Silloth except the golf course.  If the club is having a hard time filling the visitor sheet, I would think the hotel would have a hard time filling the rooms. 

I know my guys turned down return trips to Silloth twice simply because the town was not nice.  I don't mind it too much because I know when a large group rolls in you create your own crack.  But I think I am a minority in giving the golf the biggest priority by far. A nice town, accommodation and clubhouse isn't going to attract me to an average course.  Accommodation to me is the least important priority so long as the place is clean and reasonably priced.  Its good to see the hotel has been smartened up.  The lounge looks eerily similar to many new clubhouse lounges...not good. 

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

£440 for membership may seem crazy cheap to you but compared to Dornoch it might seem quite expensive. Not everywhere is Bristol and suspect £440 is the a rate that is correct for that area. After all they have had 122 years to fine tune it.

I agree that £500K seems quite good for a 22 room en-suite hotel but then it might need some money spending on it. If your concept is sound then whether you buy and renovate or new build it will work however 22 rooms are a lot to fill IMO

Jon

I was working up in this part of the country earlier in the year. Property, ergo land,  is crazy cheap. The knock on effect is basic economics: less barriers to entry in the market by way of less overheads. Couple that with turf which is naturally conducive to golf, low wages and a limited tax burden and you have a natural business advantage. Essentially, you have a position whereby you can get by on a shoe string in the bad times and make a bit of money when things pick up. It's all about susceptibility to risk factors. 

Of course, in the next twenty odd years when Adrian's parkland tracks blow such classics out of the rankings water and even the locals lose interest in such antiquated courses, things could get a bit trickier. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean - Yes I looked at it and thought it looked very 'clubhousey' as well. I also agree golf is first for me (and prob 99% of GCAeers). Being on the front-line it will come as no surprise to you that typical questions of;

Do they sell Stella? Do they have buggies? How much is Guiness? Where is the nearest Indian? Where is the nearest lap-dancing club? all come out higher than; What do the greens stimp at? When were the bunkers last revetted? Who designed it?

Paul - We still have minimum wage to pay even up North, properties will be lower in price, land too but golf courses don't run like that. A golf course in Workington still has to pay the same for its fuel, greens mower, beer prices might be a touch inside proper price but it does not run the way you are suggesting. It could run with volunteers and less staff and probably the standard will decline, but it would survive. I think this is the likely pan-out for many 'Gloria Gaynors' in tough locations

[Paul Gray]

Adrian,

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. The natural advantages are not all encompassing.

[Jim McCann]

I played Silloth the other day and can confirm the annual green fee of £440.

The club captain (who was in the lounge polishing the silverware from the trophy cabinet) told me he was always glad to see visitors as income from that source helped to keep fees at that their current level. He also mentioned that more than half of the members lived in the Carlisle area.

The club is also offering a new membership package of £440 for annual fees, £300 as a joining fee (£100 of which goes towards a bar tab) and the entitlement to invite up to six (or was it eight?) guests for a free round.

I thought this represented terrific value, regardless of how bleak the town might appear to be for some.

[Jon Wiggett]

We still have minimum wage to pay even up North, properties will be lower in price, land too but golf courses don't run like that. A golf course in Workington still has to pay the same for its fuel, greens mower, beer prices might be a touch inside proper price but it does not run the way you are suggesting. It could run with volunteers and less staff and probably the standard will decline, but it would survive. I think this is the likely pan-out for many 'Gloria Gaynors' in tough locations

Yet Adrian I would still bet that Silloth maintains 18 holes for quite a bit less than your course does or probably ever could. Yes, there are certain economic fixed costs but it still does not alter the fact that total costs are going to be higher in certain geographical areas than others.

Certainly the one case of a club in financial difficulties up here is down to costs of running the clubhouse and servicing the debt it created when it was done up some while back not the cost of maintaining the course.

Jon

[Jim Tang]

Fantastic pictures!  Thanks for sharing.

How true to the original design is Silloth?  Has much work been done on the course over the years.?  Everything about the course looks so natural.