[Tim Bert]

Here's some brief hole-by-hole impressions, along with the yardage we played the holes each round:

#1 (382 / 350) - An enjoyable opener.  Having played Sand Hills the previous day, I couldn't help but notice the similarity of the first tee shot.  SH obviously plays way down hill and you can see the entire fairway laid out in front of you, but the angle, the carry, and type the shot demanded from the back tee at BN were close enough to be a topic of conversation.  I thought the back tee worked better than the 350 tee, where the hole was much less interesting and right in front of you.  My left-handed fade probably factors into me favoring the back tee as well.

#2 (483 / 470) - One of my favorite par 4s on the course.  I couldn't help but be thankful that the wind wasn't blowing at us on the tee.  I was left with a hybrid to the green both rounds, but there was plenty enough room by the green to feel comfortable swinging for it.  You just need to be careful enough not to be lulled into swinging so freely that you plop it into the bunkers.  Both times, I wound up on or around the green, and both times I ended up with a bogey.  The green was very large, and served as a sign of what we'd see throughout the course.

#3 (145 / 145) - I thought the bunkering around this hole was terrific.  This was one of the greens where I remember a few balls stopping in spots where I don't think they'll stop in another year.  I liked the look of the hole from the far right tee box, but I don't remember there being a tee box with much length from that angle.  I seem to remember only a 100 yard option, which seemed a bit short for the hole.  While there is bunkering all over the place, there was plenty enough room to miss that I didn't think the hole needed to be played that short.  Again, I was playing in little or no wind.

#4 (573 / 475) - Don't let your caddie tell you that the bunker on the right isn't in play from the 475 tee box.  Mine did, and I felt compelled to prove him wrong by missing to the right.  My guess is that in a strong wind, that bunker would be in play from the tips.  I really liked the elevated tee box.  Don't forget to check the pin position for #7 when coming off this hole.  I thought this served as a good introduction to the par 5s, but in my mind it was over-shadowed by the two good one-shotters that sandwiched it.  I'm sure others will have a different opinion.

#5 (160 / 160) - The bunkering seems minimal compared to #3, but the single, devilish bunker right in front of the green is looming.  The pin was cut directly behind the bunker the day we played, and the bunker dared me to challenge it.  There are also plenty of other bunkers around to draw in poorly struck shots.  One just tends not to notice them at first glance.  I found it interesting that the par 3s appear on the course in order of increasing length.  You get the short ones on the front nine, followed by two longer ones on the back.  I thought the 4 worked together to create a strong set of short holes.

#6 (420 / 410) - There's been a lot of discussion on this one, particularly the green, already.  As I mentioned in another post, I think there is a great option from 420 for those that think the green is too severe for a 480 yard hole.  Thinking back, I'm not even sure where the 480 tee was.  We played from an angle where the fairway was blind behind a dune, running away diagonally to the left (another tee shot that sets up nicely for the lefty fade.)  I didn't remember this as one of the most severe greens on the course, though I suppose it was since Doak wasn't arguing the point with those that brought it up.  Perhaps I was just so close to the pin that I didn't notice what was going on around me!  As with number one, I really enjoyed the angles tee shot more than the 410 play it straight down the pipe tee shot.

#7 (315 / 352) - This one is pure fun.  We played it at a distance that was driveable in the morning, though none of us hit the ball on the right line to get there.  In the aftenroon, we played it from the back tee, which is probably still driveable in the right wind conditions.  For me, it was a short wedge in.  The pin was placed on the middle finger (appropriately) of the green.  The first round, I played from off the back of the green.  I distinctly saw a line to the hole that would start the ball left and let it feed in, though I would never really have a shot at making the putt.  My caddie turned my attention to the right, where I could funnel the ball off the green's edge by the bunker, let it come back, and feed slowly right toward the end of the putt.  I followed his suggestion, and left myself an easy par.  In the afternoon, I had a blind shot to the green from behind the bunker on the left side of the fairway.  I hit a shot that fed in nicely nearly the pin.  I missed the birdie putt, but went home satisfied with two pars.  The hole will see its share of pars and birdies (and probably and eagle or two) but I suspect there are a few nasty scores out there as well.

#8 (470 / 515) - I really enojoyed the second shot on this hole.  The bunker in the left-middle of the fairway is far enough in front of the green that if you are mounting a serious charge at going for it in two, it probably son't be an issue.  It still forced everyone one of us in the group "safely" right of the green, into a little area depressed from the green.  The fact that the green is wildly contoured (they may host an Olympic skiing event here one day) made our recovery difficult on this day given that we short-sided ourselves.  I think it was the contours on this green, as well as the odd-shaped 7th green that keep me from recalling the details of the 6th green.

#9 (362 / 351) - I share the opinion with a few other posters here that this is the least interesting hole on the course, though I'd still rather play it than most holes on the courses I frequent.  I attribute my lack of "understanding" of this hole to the fact that I spent the majority of my time on it looking for my ball and hitting from the dunes.  I didn't really get an opportunity to figure out how I'd like to attack the hole.  It just seemed to be more perfectly framed by dunes on either side of the fairway than any other hole on the course.  

Back nine thoughts to be posted later this weekend.

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:  It's funny how a lot of people seem to think #9 is straightforward and boring, yet in three rounds I've seen more people screw it up than any other hole, and no birdies.

[John Kirk]

Agree with Tom here.  #9 is less visually distinctive than many of the holes, and my initial assessment was the same as Tim's.  But the hole grows on you with repeat plays.  Unless you hit a pretty accurate drive of about 240 yards, you're left with an uneven, usually uphill lie, which causes me problems.

How about that triple "U" alliteration?

I agree with Doug Wright, that the least challenging hole on the course is presently #3.  #3 has one of the youngest and softest greens, and should benefit by becoming firmer and faster.  On the other hand, one of my guests always remarked, "did I tell you this is my favorite hole?", whenever we walked onto the tee box.  He then repeated the phrase another 5 or 6 times each round, each time referring to a different hole.

[Tim Bert]

Tom, I don't recall thinking anything at the site was boring.  

[Scott Szabo]

I believe the back tee on #6 is straight to the west of the #5 green, up on a dune, about 60-70 yards from the tees you were talking about.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

There isn't a tee up on that dune for #6.  That's where the tees were going to be originally, but we moved #5 green and #6 tee during construction to make the walk easier, and because I thought we needed more variety on the tee shots (i.e. too many elevated tees).

The back tee on 6 is just to the left of the bunker complex on 5 green.  There are several flat spots over there to tee off, though if they don't put tee markers out, you might not notice them.

[Scott Szabo]

I remember Rupert mentioning that back tee, and the difficult walk.  Thanks for the correction.

I would agree, if they don't put tee markers, it would be impossible to find.  

[Doug Wright]

The back tee on 6 is just to the left of the bunker complex on 5 green.  There are several flat spots over there to tee off, though if they don't put tee markers out, you might not notice them.

This was one of the many cool features at Ballyneal. This tee isn't really a tee at all, just a flat spot a few steps from the 5th green. There is a 480 plate there, I believe.

[Tim Pitner]

My impressions of Ballyneal . . . um, they're very favorable.  I played 27 holes today (the front nine twice).  I'll elaborate further when I have a little more time and energy, but I'll throw out a few thoughts now.  

The undulations in the fairways and greens are striking--this is a wild course.  Great variety of holes.  As people have said, the greens are quite slow right now--the head pro said they were stimping at about 7.5.  The ground game options will really come alive once the course firms up and the greens quicken.  I had trouble today with balls hanging up on slopes when I thought they would run down.  It's difficult to play out of the native areas.  With the yucca plants and other gnarly vegetation, it's a lot harder to hit recovery shots than, say, at Pacific Dunes.  Of course, the fairways are very wide, but sometimes you do wind up in the junk.  

The bunkers create a lot of visual deception--the landing areas often appear narrower than they really are and it causes one to attempt to perhaps be too precise, which often brings a lot of trouble into play.  This is a function of not knowing the course, but I suspect that Ballyneal is a course that you have to play a lot to learn.  I was faced with a lot of non-level lies.  Downhill lie, 4 iron seemed to be a recurring theme for me.  At Pacific Dunes, the punishment for being in the wrong spot in the fairways is mostly meted out by the greens.  At Ballyneal, avoiding uneven lies in the fairway is an additional consideration.  

I'm rambling a bit so I'll stop now.  More later.  

[Tim Bert]

After a mundane experience on the 9th hole (I'm just kidding, Tom!!!), we move on to the back nine...

#10 (430 / 420) - We weren't up to the task of playing this one from the 510 yard tips, and judging by our resulting scores that was a wise move.  While the hole plays down hill, it plays forever long into any kind of wind.  The green area was wide open enough to support the length, and the hole is a beauty standing up on the tee.  Just another potentially long par 4 that adds to the great set at Ballyneal (see #2, #6, #17, #18, and I suppose #13 if you dare!!!)

#11 (177 / 145) - I really like the zigzag approach running up from the tee to the green.  I'm not sure if this hole actually plays uphill, but it felt like it did.  We didn't step back to the 200 box, which I think is slightly more elevated.  During the first round, one of the guys in the group hit the stick, and his ball stopped a few feet from the hole.  He missed the birdie putt, but nevermind that!  The bunker just in front of the right portion of the green forced us to bail left (with the exception of the nearly holed shot.)  I learned from experience that you don't want to bail too far left, particularly if you have too much club in your hand.  Too far over on the left can leave you with a tough recovery.

#12 (375 / 335) - Go too far right off the tee and you may still find fairway, but you won't like your approach.  You are bound to be looking at a "wall of fairway" and nothing more.  As mentioned before, all of the fairways here are undulating, but the right side of #12 is one of the more dramatic spots.  It also leaves several tricky bunkers to be navigated when coming from the right.  I'm pretty sure this is the unique green with a spine that runs down the middle from front to back (I still haven't downloaded my pictures.)  There are three distinct buckets on the green, and you'd like for your ball to end up in the same one as the pin or your putt will be tricky.

#13 (396 / 396) - The tips play over the 12th green.  If chosen, it could be the second par 4 played over 500 yards on the back nine!  I would probably choose (or be forced) to play it more like a par 5 from back there, but I think there is more charm to the 400 yard tees where the fairway bunkers really come to life.  I think you'd be hard-pressed to bring the fairway bunkers into play from the tips unless 1) the wind is really howling or 2) you really knock the snot out of your tee shots.  The green is enormous, like so many of the others.  This was one of my favorites to play.

#14 (362 / 340) - There's a ton of room to miss right on this one, though a dune obscures the view from the tee.  I think there is a nice flat portion of fairway over there as well, though I was nowhere in the vicinity either round we played.  I hit a ball just on the left edge of the fairway bunker, and left myself with an awkward stance and grip in order to advance the ball toward the hole.  When taking my stance, I must admit I picked up my first assist on one of Tom's designs.  My footing slipped, and the next thing I knew the bunker had a tad more character than when I arrived.

#15 (175 / 237) - This one can be a real beast from the back tees, though the green is admittedly huge and the large dune blocking the view of the green (how much depends upon which tee you play) can help if you hit the ball just off the back of it.  The view from the highest dune here is a rewarding one.

#16 (494 / 494) - Like so many others at Ballyneal, this hole could play differently every single day - depending upon the wind conditions and the tee box played.  If you don't get enough umph behind your tee shot, then you are left with a blind wall of fairway.  From here, the best play is to gauge your yardage to a tiny neck in the fairway, and lay safely back, though this leaves you with a little longer than desired approach to what felt like a smaller than average green site for the course.  You'd really like to get your ball advanced far enough off the tee that you can see the severe dogleg left laid out before you.  The bunkering around the green can get you in some trouble.  I can vouch for the splendid view of the entire hole that can be had high above the bunkering on the right side of the fairway just where it is pinched.  This is your last good shot at birdie, unless the wind is feeling generous.

#17 (464 / 464) - This is the first of two strong finishing par 4s.  The left side of the fairway is the place to be if you want a nice view of the green.  Challenging the bunker in the corner of the dogleg could result in a shorter approach, but it could also leave you with a blind shot in.  If the wind isn't aiding too much, the bunker should be just out of reach for an average hitter.  I've never had as much fun hitting hybrids into greens on par 4s than I had at Ballyneal.

#18 (463 / 425) - Outstanding finishing hole!  One of my favorites anywhere.  The fairway is enormous, and it welcomes a good free swing to try to poke the ball out as far as possible.  The bunkers in front of the hole are not the place to be, but there is plenty of room wide right to draw (or in my case fade) a shot in around them.  There is some trash if you go too far left, and in a helping wind at least, I don't think there is enough reward to worry about challenging the bunkering on that side.  With the wind coming at you, I'm sure you'd like to gain all the advantage you can get.  The legend of the long-hitting assistant pro comes to a head on this hole when your caddies mention that he drove the ball over this green from the tips.  He straightened that rumore out in the pro shop and explained that it was the 425 tees rather than the tips.

I think I already mentioned that the operative word at this course is fun.  I can't think of many places where I'd rather play a match or just go out and enjoy 9 more holes before darkness creeps in.

I can't wait to get the pictures on the computer!

[Tim Pitner]

I think I'll avoid a hole by hole analysis because others (including Ran) have already done so.  Instead, I'll just offer a few more thoughts.  Ballyneal really is one terrific hole after another.  Nos. 1, 5, 6, 7 (pure genius) and 10 are particular favorites of mine.  I don't see any issue at all with No. 6 green.  

If I have one criticism, it's that the course is such a roller coaster ride, which of course is great fun, that it seems to lack some of the ebb and flow I tend to prefer in courses.  There are few, if any, breather holes.  For example, some of my favorite holes at Pacific Dunes are holes like #3, #8 and #15, which don't appear to be all that difficult, but can jump up and bite you.  Most holes at Ballyneal are more like #16 and #18 at Pacific Dunes, with extremely undulating fairways.  Ballyneal may lack some of the subtlety of a course like PD.  Of course, that probably reflects the terrain, rather than any flaw of the design.  Ballyneal is absolutely a great course and very enjoyable to play.  In a perfect world, I'd have the land be a bit gentler.  

[Tim Bert]

Tim,

There's gentler land just around the corner from Ballyneal, and I don't think it would yield quite as interesting a course as Doak built here!

The world's not perfect, but it's pretty good in the chop hills.

[Tim Pitner]

Tim Bert,

I wouldn't change a thing about Ballyneal.  Actually, I would try to make the greens and fairways quicker, but that will come with time.  My "criticism" of the wildness of Ballyneal is in the context of thinking about the perfect course, a Doak 10 if you will.  Pacific Dunes is my favorite course so, regardless of whether it merits a Doak 10, it represents a Pitner 10.  To date, it is my gold standard.  

As a golf course (as distinct from an architectural achievement), I think Ballyneal falls short of Pacific Dunes.  Obviously, it doesn't have the Pacific Ocean and, views aside, this means that its holes lack some of the definition that holes like 4, 10 and 13 have at Pacific.  There isn't a dominant feature like the ocean to help distinguish the holes in your mind.  And, as a personal preference, I like a course to have more holes with flattish fairways (although still with humps and bumps).  By the way, this preference doesn't have much to do with uneven lies; it's more of an aesthetic thing.  Ballyneal is golf in the dunes and hills; my ideal course would have some holes like Pacific Dunes #8 in it.  

None of this is to diminish what does exist at Ballyneal--a superb course that is great fun and one that I'd go back to in a heartbeat.  

[Tim Pitner]

I'm shamelessly bumping this thread to see if my comments will generate any further discussion.  (They were posted over the weekend).  Can you have too much of a good thing?  Does anyone else like a few holes sprinkled in a course that are a little less (for lack of a better term) busy?

[John Kirk]

Tim,

I'd put 3, 6, and 9 in that category.  The Ballyneal equivalent of breather holes.  By the way, I don't consider 3 and 8 at Pac Dunes to be "breather" holes.  They are just flatter holes.  Pac Dunes is blessed with fantastic topographical variety.  Hard to beat.  By the way, I can't go back and forth with you today.  Out in the yard cleaning up.

JK

[Tim Pitner]

John,

There's no obligation to go back and forth.  I truly wondered whether I was out of step with others on this.  You don't often hear people clamoring for more flattish holes.  And, you're right, Pacific Dunes nos. 3 and 8 probably shouldn't be thought of as "breather" holes.  I'll stand by my statement though that I prefer the variety of the holes at Pacific over the consistent wildness of Ballyneal.  Although Doak and company did a fantastic job in varying how the holes play through, over and across the dunes/hills, there is a certain sameness (in a general sense) to many holes.  

[Larry_Keltto]

Tim P. -- I'm enjoying your thoughts on Ballyneal -- great stuff.

Here are a few more of my observations of the course that I think are relevant.

My most important point is that the Ballyneal land always possessed incredible undulation. Mother Nature was feeling frisky when those landforms were built. I think a flattened fairway would look artificial and out of place amid those dunes. The Hand of Man -- as Ran says -- would've been really obvious. I'm glad Doak didn't do that. He took what the land gave him didn't try to force anything onto it.

As a result, Ballyneal isn't going to be everyone's ideal. (It happens to be mine, though!) I also fancy Deal, Ballybunion and Pennard -- courses with plenty of undulation. I could play those courses until the end of my days and not become bored. By way of contrast, I suspect that people who love Birkdale won't be infatuated with Ballyneal. And that's fine, too.

With Ballyneal, Ballybunion, Deal and Pennard, the varied terrain makes them fun for me. The fun comes from repeatedly facing challenges that demand improvisation. Playing Ballyneal is like playing jazz -- using skill and imagination to create something great. In the case of the golfer, creating a great shot.

(There are a plenty of places at Ballyneal that yield flat lies, but the golfer must decide whether he wants to attempt to reach those spots. And with Ballyneal's width, it's going to require a lot of rounds to find those locations. An example is the far right side of #13 -- but do you want to come in from that angle? Sometimes, perhaps. Another example: a long, straight tee shot at #16 is rewarded with a flat lie and a great look at the remaining fairway and the green.)

I can't help thinking of Ballyneal in musical terms. Ballyneal begins somewhat gently with #1-3, then BAM! the horns blare when you reach the fourth tee. Numbers 4-8 are loud and wild, but there's time to catch your breath a bit at #9. You dive in again with the tee shot on #10. The dramatic climax is reached on the green at #16. The piece then reaches resolution with the quieter finishing holes, 17 and 18.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have now played with two people who have played there post opening and must confess a true desire to see this great piece of Doakian work.

[Tim Pitner]

Larry,

I don't disagree with anything you said.  I am surprised you grouped Deal in with the likes of Ballybunion and Pennard.  I was unaware that Deal had that sort of rise and fall in the land.  

Just to clarify my point (to the extent I have a coherent one), I'm not suggesting that Doak should have flattened any land or used the flat land alongside Ballyneal.  Nor would I put myself in the Birkdale camp of links golf.  No one's entitled to flat lies.  But, if I were to think of my ideal course, it would have some holes that are a little more toned down than most of the holes at Ballyneal.  

You're absolutely correct that it will take many rounds at Ballyneal (much more than 27 holes!) to figure out where to hit it, both in the fairways and on the greens.  There were several times when my caddie was telling me to aim down the middle and, instead, I tried to aim to a nice landing area and, by doing so, I brought the junk more into play.  I remember, on #10, trying to hit over the bunker on the right and being disappointed when I hit it left down the slope into the bowl.  My caddie reminded me that it was still fairway and I nearly made birdie from down there--just an example of how things are rarely as they appear at Ballyneal.  

It's a fascinating golf course.  Jaw-dropping golf.  One that you would normally have to cross an ocean to play.  But (and this isn't much of a criticism), I'll take Pacific Dunes.

[Larry_Keltto]

<<I am surprised you grouped Deal in with the likes of Ballybunion and Pennard.  I was unaware that Deal had that sort of rise and fall in the land.>>

I agree with you. Deal has plenty of level stances in the fairway. The undulation becomes prominent around the greens, and that kind of clouds my Deal thoughts!

<<But (and this isn't much of a criticism), I'll take Pacific Dunes.>>

Ballyneal or Pacific Dunes -- a fun choice to have! And yes, being compared to Pac Dunes is a great compliment.

[Tom_Doak]

We could have built a couple of holes out to the right of the 17th and 18th in flatter terrain, but we didn't want to give up any of the other holes we'd found.  But, I think there are more flat places out there to hit your tee shots ... you just haven't found them all yet.

No one has mentioned it yet but Sand Hills is actually quite a bit flatter than Ballyneal.  I've always thought it was a bit too flat in the fairways, and that the only thing it was lacking was some of the smaller-scale undulations that Pacific Dunes has.

[Tim Bert]

Tom,

Your point about the fairways at Sand Hills is an interesting one.  I say this because when I think of the fairways there, I think of the steep decline to the left on #14, the huge bowl in #10, the massive dome in front of #9, and things like that.  There are a number of places to draw level lies, but I'd guess that most people don't think of the fairways at Sand Hills as being flat.

One think I mentioned to Tim P. is that Pacific Dunes is still right there at the top of my list, but the one thing Sand Hills and Ballyneal showed me is that more severe greens can be a lot of fun.  The greens are the one spot where I think these two Midwest giants outclass PD.  

At the end of the day, I'm happy to accept all three just as they are.

[Gene Greco]

Tom Doak:

      Indeed, the land at Sand Hills wouldn't be characterized as "choppy."

      There is an elegant expansiveness to the rise and fall of each of the fairways and there is nary a level lie throughout. Where might I ask do you see the fairways as "a bit too flat?"

The player continually needs to negotiate these not so subtle lie variations at every twist and turn. Possible exceptions might be the landing area of #2, the iron lay up on #7, some of the landing area of #11 and where a poor skied tee ball might land on #14.

     You aren't trying to create a thought process of false illusion among posters that Sand Hills could possibly
be considered flat???

     The comparisons between Sand Hills and Ballyneal will invariably continue over the months and years (as they should) but wasn't it you in a different thread who wished Ballyneal might be compared to courses other than the mighty Sand Hills?

      Might there be any value (to you) in a comparison to say, Wild Horse?

       Sutton Bay?

       Red Mike?

       Bayside?

       Dismal River?

       Prairie Dunes?

   I believe the celebration of a new great golf course in the heartland of America, especially one created by you, should continue.  Furthermore,  I believe the best golf in the United States is being played in the grass covered dunesland of Nebraska, Kansas, South Dakota, North Dakota and, according to all accounts mentioned above, Colorado.

   However, you're going to have to be much more specific with regards to your blanket assertions and explain why Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw needed to move earth to improve upon, still, the most natural golf course in the world.
         
       

[Bob_Huntley]

Gene,

Well said and with the fervour of an evangelist.

Bob

[Tim Pitner]

I haven't played Sand Hills, but I can absolutely believe that it is "flatter than Ballyneal."  Believe me, almost any course would have to be flatter than Ballyneal.  And, that's neither praise nor criticism--it's just a fact.

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