Sebonack, an interesting study

[James Bennett]

Pat

you responded about bunker sizes and illusions as follows:

'The first left side bunker on # 3 also presents that illusion, though, once you get up to the bunker, it's larger than it appeared as you were standing on the tee.'

I'm not sure of the tag line for such a bunker, but I do know of one for the opposite type of bunker.  You know, the bunker that looks large and visually intimidating from the tee but actually comprises a small, pathetic scrape of sand.  Mackenzie built some of these in his early days at Moortown typically using the up-hill slope to accentuate the visual hazard.  The UK expression was 'Millenium Domes' after the 2000 celebration construction on the Thames - looks impressive from afar, but once you get there there is very little to see.  Another version is 'wonderbra' which is probably a good name for the small, inexpensive, push-up bunkers that Mackenzie also built in his early days (eg #12 at Moortown, #3/4 and #6 at Alwoodley).

They all sound like variants on some camoflague method to confuse the assailant about the actual hazards ahead.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Interestingly, there is one hole at Sebonack which is a pretty close copy of a famous hole which Jack and I both admired.  You described it in detail, it's the 12th.

When we started work on the hole Jack asked what I was thinking and I said I was thinking about the Postage Stamp at Royal Troon.  I meant that only in the general sense of building a tiny green surrounded by trouble ... the original green site was lower and I did not visualize building it up much, although we did want to build it up some so the flag would fly against the water.  Anyway, Jack jumped on that idea and started sketching out the Postage Stamp in detail, what happens when you miss its green, etc.

I didn't want to build an obvious copy, of course, and especially I thought that the large dune to the left of the Postage Stamp would look really out of place down there in the low corner of the property.  So, we tried to make it look like there was a smaller dune and we had cut it off to build the green from it.  I told Jim Urbina to be sure you could still see the little sandy bank way behind the left side of the green, which you now see just over the top of the left greenside bunker from the back tee.

Michael Pascucci asked us repeatedly to find a place where we would have a steep bank of fairway-cut turf below the green, because he said deep bunkers are too easy for Tour players now.  He wanted this feature to the left of #10, but I didn't see how it would look natural; he also wanted it right of #12, but I thought it would spoil the view coming down #11.  But Jack and I both thought it was a perfect penalty for being over and left on #12, giving you the same really difficult recovery shot as at the Postage Stamp.  So that idea was a three-way collaboration.

As for the trees you mentioned on #6, I had the same thoughts as you expressed to start, but Jim Lipe suggested leaving those during the construction process, saying he didn't think they would really come into play much in practice.  Every time Jack and I have walked through the hole, we've discussed their fate, but we have yet to find a definitive reason to take them out.  I've had a couple of guests already who drove left and had to hit their second over the trees, and both players said after putting out they would keep the trees in place.  They are mostly a visual intimidation, if you hit a decent second shot it clears the trees easily, but they make it harder to take dead aim.

Oh -- and no, we did not think about the 19th green as a first green.  Michael did, that's where he always wanted to put it, but I was sure that would bring National's pro shop into play.  In fact I almost refused to build it for the 19th out of concern that Michael would use it for #1.  But to play from the 19th tee straight out toward the point of Cow Neck was too good a view to pass up.  That hole, by the way, was Garret's idea and it's Urbina's green, and it might be the coolest green on the course.

[TEPaul]

"When you consider a prevailing wind, the left to right slope of the fairway and the right side fairway bunker, aren't golfers going to favor the left side of a relatively narrow fairway, leaving them with a far more difficult approach, especially to any left side hole location?"

Patrick:

If one carefully considers what you just said there, it seems to me that description is just about a perfect one for a very well "balanced" conceptual and strategic work-up on that hole. In other words, one may want to steer clear of the danger on the right of that fairway but the trees on the left "balance out" playing safe away from the danger on the right. That's one basic conceptual and strategic aspect, of course, but the other and probably more essential question is---if there was no danger on the right of that fairway and no trees on the left of the fairway what is the ideal spot on that fairway from which to approach that green?  

TomD:

That's interesting about what inspired the 12th green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"When you consider a prevailing wind, the left to right slope of the fairway and the right side fairway bunker, aren't golfers going to favor the left side of a relatively narrow fairway, leaving them with a far more difficult approach, especially to any left side hole location?"

Patrick:

If one carefully considers what you just said there, it seems to me that description is just about a perfect one for a very well "balanced" conceptual and strategic work-up on that hole. In other words, one may want to steer clear of the danger on the right of that fairway but the trees on the left "balance out" playing safe away from the danger on the right. That's one basic conceptual and strategic aspect, of course, but the other and probably more essential question is---if there was no danger on the right of that fairway and no trees on the left of the fairway what is the ideal spot on that fairway from which to approach that green?  

You're forgetting two important factors.

First, The hole is blind off the tee, so the golfer doesn't know that going to the safer side will leave him a blind or very difficult second shot.

Second, the slope of the fairway and right side bunker provide a visual that says, stay left off the tee, however, that's a misleading signal.

I actually hit a decent drive in the center to right center of the fairway, and, had the hole been cut left rear I would have been blocked on my approach as well.   My approach was slightly impeded, but, I hit a high 7-iron to get to the back of the green, thus avoiding the blocking trees.

Don't be so quick to evaluate the hole until you've played it per CBM. [/color]

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

It's just a dice throw to try to figure out where you're comig from when asked a simple straight-forward question. There's only a single fairly simple question in that last post of mine and it's not that hard to answer that question if one just bothers to reads the question, and then answers what it asks, rather than answering a whole host of things it does not ask.  

[Tom_Doak]

The sixth green is both crowned and tiered from back to front.  There isn't really a correct side of the fairway to play to from the tee -- you can flirt with the right bunker if you want a better look at the flag, but the angle doesn't matter so much.

You get to see the flag position as you play #4.  And the drive is only blind once!

[TEPaul]

TomD:

Thank you for the simple and straight-forward, and obviously very accurate answer to my question to Pat Mucci about the 6th hole. God only knows why I just didn't ask you in the first place.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if he now proceeds to argue with you (who designed the golf course) about what the proper or intended strategic ramificatons of that hole are.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

There's so much to teach you and I only have so much time.

Tom Doak's response is one that's made in the context of a drive that's been executed, not one that's being contemplated on the tee.

The presentation to the golfer standing on the 6th tee is distinctly different than what's been presented to him on the previous driving holes.

You go from WIDE fairways to a much narrower fairway, lined with trees.  And, the fairway slopes from high left to low right, a prevailing wind is from left to right, there's a bunker right and the ground falls off precipitously on the right.

99 % of the golfers are going to try to avoid the right side with their drive.

I know you don't understand that, but, take my word on it, as if, like Mayday Malone, it was The Gospel.

If the golfer has been successful in avoiding what he perceived as the dangerous side, then he's left with an intimidating approach shot, either around or over a stand of trees.  Most golfers can't move their ball at will, and as such, hitting the green is extremely difficult, and, that green is not benign by any definition.

To try to further enlighten you, think of this interesting concept.  Trees Grow.
Yes, that's actually true.  Trees do grow and get taller.
Unless they've reached full maturity, it's likely that they'll get taller, thus presenting an even more difficult challenge.

So, the issue can't be viewed in the narrow context of today's round.

In all seriousness, from the tee, the right side looks like jail, and as such, the golfer will tend to avoid jail without paying
$ 200.

The fact that the question I posed was the subject of a discussion amongst the architects would seem to validate my curiosity.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Doak's response is one that's made in the context of a drive that's been executed, not one that's being contemplated on the tee."

TomD:

This response and remark on Pat Mucci's part is truly one of his classic beffudlers.

I'll let you handle the response to it if you choose to accept that "Mission Impossible".  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I believe that Tom Doak understands quite well.

You need to PLAY the golf course to gain more insight.
It's a great experience you won't regret, and, it will expand your horizons.  Don't forget, the true test of golf and golf course architecture is in THE PLAY of the golf course, not walking around looking for your allegedly lost dog Coorshaw.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:  Patrick is right, in that the tee shot is very intimidating because it is EXTREMELY narrow compared to the first five holes, and you won't get over that after playing it once or twice.  [But, there is still not a correct side of the fairway to aim for, however much someone wants to break down the strategy of the hole.]

We actually made number six narrow to compensate for the fact that a couple of the holes had been cleared too wide before we got back to walk through them -- I just drew them too wide on the clearing map.  The fifth has all those cool fairway bunkers and strategy you like so much because it was one of the holes cleared extra-wide, as was #14.

Pete Dye once told me that some of the features people liked about his courses were actually mistakes made by the construction crew that he just had to work around, I guess this one falls into that category.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

What happens to a ball hit to the right side of the fairway on # 6 ?  

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:  That depends on how far you hit it.  So far, I've seen a couple of balls into the fairway bunker, a couple which stayed up top on the right, one into the trees right, but none which carried far enough to roll on down around the corner of the trees into the valley.

[TEPaul]

"[But, there is still not a correct side of the fairway to aim for, however much someone wants to break down the strategy of the hole.]"

TomD:

Thanks, you answered my rather straight-forward question about #6 (even if parenthetically ). Pat, on the other hand, seems virtually incapable of answering a straight-forward question.  

Interesting about the unintended clearing and width on some of the holes, and the narrowness of #6. I like that kind of back to back instant variety (#5 and #6). It's a different perception altogether but it sort of reminds me of the instant back to back variety of PD's #4 and #5, although, in that case, its not about wide and narrow but all about some of the coolest back to back seasonal "par skewing" I've ever seen.

[TEPaul]

"So far, I've seen a couple of balls into the fairway bunker, a couple which stayed up top on the right, one into the trees right, but none which carried far enough to roll on down around the corner of the trees into the valley."

TomD:

Does that perhaps mean the hole might play more interesting, strategically and otherwise, if played from somewhat shorter tees?

Sometime I see holes that've had a whole lot of length added to them get into what I call a "conceptual disconnect". Do you think that may be somewhat true of #6?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:  I've got a whole different thread going on that very subject:  is shorter, better?

As for the sixth at Sebonack, there is a fine line on tee placement there.  If you move up too far, it's easy to go crashing into the trees on the left with a long straight ball played away from the bunker -- at some point you would HAVE to carry the bunker to get a kick forward.  But for myself, there are a lot of holes at Sebonack that are more interesting from a forward tee, and I suspect there are some that would be more interesting for Jack from a forward tee as well.

Interestingly, the sixth is also one of 3-4 holes where Mr. Nicklaus did not want to put the back tee quite so far back, but Mr. Pascucci insisted upon it.  Michael said he may not use the tee for a while but he wanted to have it for when everyone gained twenty yards next year.  At #6, he also wanted to have that corner built out so no one would "expand" the boundary of the wetlands behind it on him later.  But, I did notice the tee markers were on the back tee two weeks ago.

[George Pazin]

I'm lucky if I can remember 2 or 3 points to make after playing a course, yet Patrick almost came up with 30. Well done, thanks for inspiring some good discussion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:  That depends on how far you hit it.  So far, I've seen a couple of balls into the fairway bunker, a couple which stayed up top on the right, one into the trees right, but none which carried far enough to roll on down around the corner of the trees into the valley.

Tom Doak,

That's the point I was trying to make with that idiot-savant, TEPaul.

Balls hit to the right or right center of the fairway feed further right into the bunker or woods on the left.

Most golfers sense that on the tee, or after observing a playing partner's ball, when they've teed off first.

The three fellows I was playing with all ended up in the woods on the right despite the fact that their golf balls landed in the fairway and/or rough

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm lucky if I can remember 2 or 3 points to make after playing a course, yet Patrick almost came up with 30. Well done, thanks for inspiring some good discussion.

George Pazin,

Fortunately, my powers of observation remain keen, as does my memory.

However, to gain some insight into the ability to conduct an architectural analysis, ask TEPaul what he had for breakfast today.

The only way he knows the answer to that question is if he looks at what's on his shirt.

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   How did #11 play? I thought that was a great looking hole when I walked it last fall. The way the fairway tumbles down to the hole and then tilts left to right down near the green where a weak approach will feed off into the right front bunker, or a strong approach coming in too hard will go right through into the back bunker. Is the green receptive to an aerial approach or do you need to use the contour of the ground with your approach coming in?
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the course.This has been an interesting thread having so much feedback from Tom D.
    There were a couple of holes out there (#7?) that had really SMALL greens. How did those holes play for your group?

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:  #7, the very long par 4 down the hill, has one of the biggest greens on the golf course.  I think you're confusing it with the short par 4, #5, which has about 3300 square feet of putting surface.

Other very small greens are the 1st, 10th, 12th and 13th.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   You're right it is #5 I was thinking of, because after that hole you turn left and head up the hill to play #6 that Patrick is talking about above.
    How have those small greens worked out from what you have seen so far? The 1st and 12th greens didn't strike me as exceptionally small. How big are they? The contouring on #1 green is fantastic. Certainly a wakeup call to start the round with.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
   
How did #11 play? I thought that was a great looking hole when I walked it last fall. The way the fairway tumbles down to the hole and then tilts left to right down near the green where a weak approach will feed off into the right front bunker, or a strong approach coming in too hard will go right through into the back bunker.

One of the things I didn't mention was: how vital the caddies were to us first timers.

The visual from the tee was awesome, yet confusing to the golfers eye.
Could I carry the bunker ?
If not, with the severe right to left slope of the terrain into the bunker, I needed to be well right of it, but, a moderate sized dune/ridge obscures the far right side of the fairway, making you think the hole is much narrower on the right side.

One thing was clear, you didn't want to go into that bunker, on the fly or along the ground.

The hole played into a good wind, sometimes quartering from right to left.

I hit a very good drive into the center of the fairway.
However, with my poor eyesight I couldn't tell you where the ball landed, but, I was told it cleared the bunker by a good margin.

From about 160, downhill into the wind, it was not a shot that I felt could be played along the ground.   I felt that any club I hit into that wind would quickly balloon high above the green and come to rest quickly.  Downwind or with no wind other choices would be available, but, I'd still choose the aerial route.

I knew that going right with my approach was a no no, but, I didn't want to err to far to the left, even with the hole cut to the left.

I pulled a 6-iron a little left and a little long.
I ran a 6-iron up the bank and made the putt for par, which I wanted desperately, based on the visuals from the tee and fairway.[/color]

Is the green receptive to an aerial approach or do you need to use the contour of the ground with your approach coming in?

Into a wind, or with crossing winds I don't know that I'd use the ground.  I might want to err short and left, but, I'd prefer to come in aerially almost all of the time.

Remember, your lie in the fairway is usually not very level.

Downwind, I might play it differently.[/color]
   
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the course.This has been an interesting thread having so much feedback from Tom D.
   
There were a couple of holes out there (#7?) that had really SMALL greens. How did those holes play for your group?


# 1 green is small, but we all made it to the putting surface.
Some with long shots, others with 80 yard shots, but, the lie in the fairway, coupled with the wind and small target can be intimidating.

On # 5, we all hit decent tee shots and hit some pretty good approaches.  It played downwind and we were all aware that going over would be easy and unpleasant.  Fortunately, many good shots were hit.

With respect to # 10 my tee shot was the only one in the center of the fairway.  The others were all in the far left fairway or left rough.   Again, some wonderful approach shots were hit, but, noone hit it close.  Two putts were very welcome.

On # 12 I was the only one to hit the green.
Two balls went long left and one ball went into the front bunker.

On # 13 I hit the green in two, but the others had problems getting on in regulation.  All of our tee shots were too far to the right, but, fortunately, mine was long enough so that I could go directly at the green with a downwind 240-250 yard shot over the water.  The others had to tack left and then come back to the green from a distance that made the approach more difficult.

In all instances, everyone was enjoying themselves, with the possible exception of our host, who continued to uncannily find bunker after bunker on almost every hole.  
I began refering to him as "Bunker Bob".  But, he still had a great day and made a 6 footer on # 18 for par.[/color]

[JWL]

Just as a point of clarification concerning  the trees in question on the 6th hole between the landing area and the green.   When Tom and I were out there flagging trees to be removed, I was working the left side of the fairway with Tom on the right side.   I made the suggestion to keep the one leaning tree because there wasn't much behind it other than mediocre pines.   If that tree was removed and the pines, the clearing "might" have been too wide for an initial clearing line.   So I made the suggestion, and Tom agreed.   We said we could always take it later if desired, but it is difficult to stand it back up after we knock it down.
Like Tom said, the one tree has been discussed many times on site visits when going down the hole, but so far there hasn't been any suggestion by anyone to take the tree down.   Urbina and Jack even discussed it on our last trip in May, and determined that it really didn't affect play, certainly not any well played shot into the green, aerial or run up shot.   A run up shot on that line would find the left bunker most likely anyway.   Tom wasn't present on that visit in May when Jack played the course.  Jack also determined and discussed with Urbina that the 6th hole played shorter than originally thought it would, and that the back tee as constructed would work fine.   Jack hit a nice drive and an 8 iron and was somewhat surprised  that it didn't play longer up the hill.
Also, at the time of the initial clearing, the right side fairway bunker had not been discussed.   The green site had been moved on an earlier site visit from what is presently the end of the fairway on top of the hill to its present location.   The original design was a much shorter par 4, but coming after the short 5th, the decision was made to move the green site back across the valley where the entry road to the mansion was located.   That necessitated a slight movement in the 7th tee toward the 9th fairway which worked out fine.   The 6th green/7th back tee relationship is one of my favorites on the course.

[TEPaul]

"George Pazin,
Fortunately, my powers of observation remain keen, as does my memory."

Well, then, Patrick, now that we know you can see and remember things when you finally learn how to think too many of us would be delighted to invite you to participate in things like semi-intelligent architectural discussions.

But George, I can attest to the fact that Pat does have a fairly good memory. A number of times I will explain some sophisticated or nuancy architectural situation to him---he generally looks at me with the blank stare of a Canadian goose but lo and behold, generally within the year, he will spew out precisely what I explained to him sometimes almost word for word---but the only thing is he acts as if he thought of it himself, which, as most of us on here know, is a virtual impossibility.