Sebonack, an interesting study

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I don't recall the 12th hole presenting a diagonal green.

# 17 has a great diagonal green.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Thanks for the complete report Pat.

After being fortunate to see the course last year during construction, my only negatives were the routing of the course in certain areas which produced the 8th hole. It is totally out of character with the rest of the GREAT architecture that is at Sebonack. I also think that striving to place the cabin facilites, maintenance facility and parking lot in the area that it's in, upsets the harmony of environment around it.

While Tom, Jack, Jim, Chris, Jim & Garrett have done a great job in building what seems like a really great course that will stand the test of time, I can't help but to think that this might have been an error in good judgement. (I'm sure this comment will go over like a Led Zepplin, so fire-away Tom.)

That being, I can hardly wait for Brad Klein's book on Sebonack, as well as hope for the continued rise of GREAT golf architecture in our time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Thanks for the great report.   Sebonack is certainly one of the most intriguing golf courses built in our time for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the collaborative effort of one architect who is known for his designs that test the greatest players in the world and another who is known for his courses that are a throwback to a more primitive and adventurous time when golf courses were built to be fun and intriguing for the rest of us, the low handicap man be damned.

Tommy,

I'm very interested to hear your detailed thoughts about the 8th hole, and why you feel it was an unnecessary compromise to the routing.  Having never seen the course, I'm curious to understand your thinking about what might have been done.

Thanks, guys!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike.
The 8th doesn't look like any hole I've ever seen Tom have anything to do with in his career. It's almost like a modified, RTJ ANGC #16, completely manufactured which requires a typical carry over a retention pond. It's Un-characteristic from a guy that doesn't do Characteristic, and that's wha tthe golf hole is--you've seen this hole WAY too many times from some very suspect architects.

On my very first look, after being completely engaged with the masterful architecture that was being built at Seboneck, at least the stuff I had seen to that point and then shortly thereafter. It was a disappointment, albeit a premature-one as the hole was far from finished, let alone even close to grow-in.

I stood on the tee for the 8th and said, "I guess I know who designed this hole..." (meaing Jack or Tom)

While it got a laugh from my two hosts, I can assure you that I was nervous, just as I am now for making any critical comment on the place, but Sebonack deserved a better 8th hole then this. While I'm sure the jabs will be coming at me for making such an assessment in dirt, I can assure you I'm not the only one that has seen it that hasn't mentioned to me about the hole being somewhat of a dissapointment.

Not the rest of the course though.  

It is to my understanding that Mike Pascucci wanted a water hole and thus came the existence of a golf hole on land that would have been better situated for cabins, sitting on a peaceful retention pond, not a golf hole on a classic LI links property. I feel that the land the was adjacent to the 5th of the National Links was more properly suited for better golf, and that a similar congruity that Shinnecock, the National Links and Southampton share could have been further enhanced by golf--not a parking lot, staff quarters and the maintenance facility.

Realizing that this might be a somewhat critical statement for some, one which is sure to not win me any favor with the Sebonack gang, I do think that it is an accurate . and that it's the proof of just how touchy and difficult of a situation it was to be building there in the first place.

With the critical element of two of the most historic courses in the sport as neighbors, your bound to open yourself to being viewed under a very powerful microscope. I do think the course--from what I have seen of it--and what Pat has explained, that it will stand the test of time.  there is no doubt in my mind about that.

[TEPaul]

"I don't recall the 12th hole presenting a diagonal green."

Patrick:

I'm glad to hear you don't recall the 12th hole presenting a diagonal green as that probably means you still are able to notice some things and that you still have at least part of a brain left.

I didn't say the 12th green was diagonal---I said the back left line of the green has a diagonal line to it which means you can run out of space pretty fast with a tee shot that gets aggressive with the back of the green. I may not have even noticed that but Doak happened to mention that he'd hit a tee shot slightly left of it that morning and made a quick double.

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

I agree with you about the 8th hole although we never went down to the 7th green and so I never went back to the 8th tee. We parked our cars behind the 8th green because that's where the temporary office was. That's a pretty small tiered green and it does look like a lot of modern golf holes around the side of a man-made pond. Seeing how small that green is probably the best thing to do with that hole is make it no more than about 120 yards.

[Joel_Stewart]

Pat:
Would it be fair to ask how you personally rate this course?  Obviously it would be unfair to rate it against NGLA or Shinnecock so you can give it a 1 to 10 rating or compare it to Friars Head or Atlantic.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Having been lucky enough to tour Sebonack just before it opened for first play I agree with everything you guys wrote (including the 8th being kinda out of place) with exception of location of members' cabins.

Not everyone is a nutjob who will rise in the pre-dawn darkness to practice and then play 54, only to crash when it's dark again.

Many members may want to relax on their porches with drinks in hand during daytime, taking in billion-dollar views of the Peconic Bay from the high plateau where the cabins are located.

Or waking up with the same views.

A perfect spot for the cabins in my opinion, adding a lot to the appeal of Sebonack.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Voytek,
It was to my understanding the particular area I'm talking about was for staff housing, a parking lot and maintenance facility.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

TommyN:

I agree with you about the 8th hole although we never went down to the 7th green and so I never went back to the 8th tee. We parked our cars behind the 8th green because that's where the temporary office was. That's a pretty small tiered green and it does look like a lot of modern golf holes around the side of a man-made pond. Seeing how small that green is probably the best thing to do with that hole is make it no more than about 120 yards.

Tom, Yes, it is sort of a tiny little thing isn't it!?!  But given that I think Jack likes holes like that, with smaller greens......

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy/All,

Thanks for your honest assessment and detailed description.

Personally, I think it's that sort of frankness that makes this site as wonderful as it is (even if it "sucks" sometimes, admittedly) and I also believe that if this site has any value to architecture as an art form, it's because I think guys like Doak do come here to learn as well as teach.

[Mark Hissey]

Thank you for your kind words Patrick. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Construction on the clubhouse will commence in October and it will be ready fro the 2008 season.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:  Apparently your routing skills are declining.  The "alternative" eighth hole you describe would have required a 150-yard walk to the tee and a 100-yard walk from that tee to the ninth because of wetlands.  Plus, then the maintenance building would have been right at the entrance to the club.

There's nothing wrong with the routing for #8 at all, you just don't like what we did with it by building a pond.

[Voytek Wilczak]

There is something cool about par 3s over water that are also downhill.

Example: the 14th at PV.

If the 8th at Sebonack was downhill (of course at the expense of lots of earth-moving), would it receive better reviews? (many, myself included, seem to think the 8th is the weakest note in the otherwise magnificent Sebonack symphony).

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom,
I have no problem freely admitting that, not that I ever had any of those skills. the only times I have ever attempted routing was when Forrest was looking for other options for other property at Las Palomas and he asked my opinion, which I'm sure he haed no intentions of ever using.

Truthfully, I just don't care for what you got there, the 8th and the site of the housing, maintenance and lot. I know you had a lot of restrictions  there and maybe it could have yielded something different then a one-shot hole, certainly something not as so artificially constructed as the 8th. The only reason why I'm expressing it here is that in the past you've always liked to hear all of the opinions, especially the negative ones.

I don't want to diminsh --and I'm hoping you can see some of the hesitence in my posts--the quality of a place you have built, From my one visit, it looked as if it was going to be maginificent.

All 17 holes of it.

[Mark_F]

Are we foreigners missing something here?

John Huggan mercilessly skewered Donald Trump a few weeks back in an article because The Great Man wants to build a Great Golf Course open only to a select few.

How is Sebonack any different?

Or has everyone just run out of satay sticks?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ferg,
Your missing something.

Sebonack is a private club. Royal Melbourne is a private club. Muirfield is a private club.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Are we foreigners missing something here?

John Huggan mercilessly skewered Donald Trump a few weeks back in an article because The Great Man wants to build a Great Golf Course open only to a select few.

How is Sebonack any different?

Or has everyone just run out of satay sticks?

We're discussing Golf Course Architecture here, my good man, not Communism.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Would it be fair to ask how you personally rate this course?  Obviously it would be unfair to rate it against NGLA or Shinnecock so you can give it a 1 to 10 rating or compare it to Friars Head or Atlantic.

Joel,

I've abandoned the numerical rating system in favor of a system that classifies courses in categories.

Championship
Sporty
Member Friendly.

Since I only played the course once, from the Blue tees, at 6,717, I'd classify the course from the blue tees as sporty.

I liked that it differed from NGLA, SH and FH.
It has its own unique personality.

It sits on a most unusual piece of land, which contributes to its character and differentiates it from the others.

If I return for another round, and my game is relatively sound, and the wind isn't blowing at 40 mph, I'll play the black tees which are at 7,220.

I have an alignment problem with my driver.
I fare far better on rectangular tees, thus Sebonack presents an additional challenge for me.
As much as I like the flow to, and of the seemless tees, they make it very difficult for ME to align myself properly.

One of the things I liked was the wide fairways and the presentation at the green.

Given time, I'd love to spend an afternoon just playing approaches from a variety of locations in the fairway.
I'd like to play the hole from the green back in order to get a good sense of the prefered placement of my drives.

It's a great golf course.

I think that becomes obvious to the golfer after he's seen/played the first three holes.

TEPaul,

Visually, it was obvious from the 11th fairway and green, as well as from the 12th tee, that long was bad, short good.
Aiding in the quest to keep it short is a prevailing wind.
The pin was all the way back on friday and I hit it about 12 feet past the hole.  Two other fellows hit it long and slightly left, down, well below the green, in a chipping area.   I advised them to run the ball up the face of the rear bank, but, Nick chose a 9-iron and chipped it over the green, while Bobby hit a brilliant shot into the top of the bank to about 2 feet or less.  We wondered if that feature was Jack's.

Greens like # 12 and # 15, which is pear shaped at the rear, penalize long shots.  You should have observed that as you came down the 11th fairway.   Going long on # 17 isn't pretty either.

Tommy Naccarato,

In all fairness, the 16th at ANGC is brilliant, and fits into the land perfectly.  I certainly wouldn't call it manufactured.

Voytek.

Only one or two cabins have that view to the rear, the others look out upon the range, all have frontal views of the parking lot.  I prefer the Metedeconk method of placing the cabins in the wooded areas.
I understand placing the clubhouse on the bluff

Tom Doak,

Was any consideration given to utilizing the 19th hole green as an alternate green on # 1 ?

Mike Cirba,

Are you familiar with the first par 3 at Caves Valley ?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Patrick,
I'm not saying anything against the 16th at August National. I'm talking about the 8th at Sebonack, which gets it's inspiration--or at least looks like it gets it's inspriation from the 16th at Augusta National.

I've said this to others related to the project, "Why not copy a Biarritz or build a realy good Eden? Your on Long Island, where many of these types of holes exist and flourish with great interest."

Each and everytime I have discussed this hole with many of the particulars, the result was that it could have indeed been better. Other times it was suggested that playing the 19th as the tenth as a suitable option. I couldn't agree more and obviously it's a logical statement, but it's an afterthought.

[James Bennett]

In Pat Mucci's response to Pete galea's questions, Pat said

'The large bunkers appear closer than they seem (my edit - than they are), deceiving the golfer into thinking that he can drive over them.
# 16 is a perfect example.
We all thought that we could fly the right side, uphill fairway bunker until our caddy told us that it was over 275 just to reach the bunker.'

This was the same topic that we discussed about St Andrews beach #7 hole in March.  It was an illusion I referred to as 'the Las Vegas Effect'.  Because of the scale of the construction, everything appears closer than it really is.  It is certainly true regarding the proximity of the next hotel on the Vegas strip (it is always further to walk than it looks) and it was equally true at St Andrews beach.

This optical illusion works particularly well with the teeshot as there is generally less yardage information available and the golfer is left to their own judgement and experience.  

Plus, how many of us actually know how far we 'carry' a driver, especially if the tee shot has an element of elevation change plus a hint of wind.

Pat, were there any fairway hazards that were 'visually undersized' and so giving the illusion of being further away than they really were (and so discouraging the golfer from taking what was the right line)?

James B

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I'm not saying anything against the 16th at August National. I'm talking about the 8th at Sebonack, which gets it's inspiration--or at least looks like it gets it's inspriation from the 16th at Augusta National.

Tommy,

I don't see the slightest similarity.

I do see a great similarity to the first par 3 at Caves Valley.
The two holes appear identical, save for the WIND.

I've said this to others related to the project, "Why not copy a Biarritz or build a realy good Eden? Your on Long Island, where many of these types of holes exist and flourish with great interest."

One of the things I like about Sebonack is its originality.
They didn't try to copy anything else, and I think that's a virtue and a strength of the golf course.

Had they copied a recognizable hole, I think they would have been panned for it.

I thought the right side green complex on # 2 at Sebonack reminded me of # 3 at Pacific Dunes.

The # 3 green complex at Pacific Dunes was one of my favorite features.

Likewise, some of # 10 at Sebonack reminded my of # 6 at Pacific Dunes.

But, those are acceptable likenesses because they're uniquely Doak's and not someone elses.

The originality of the golf course, its dissimilarity to any other course, especially on Long Island, is an asset, not a liability.

Each and everytime I have discussed this hole with many of the particulars, the result was that it could have indeed been better. Other times it was suggested that playing the 19th as the tenth as a suitable option. I couldn't agree more and obviously it's a logical statement, but it's an afterthought.


I'm having trouble connecting, inserting or replacing the 19th hole into the routing as # 10, help me out.

I happen to think that the 19th hole is a fabulous little hole, but remember, it enjoys a remarkable site, with topography vastly different from # 8.

[Patrick_Mucci]

James B,

That feature, large fairway bunkers that appear closer than they are is in evidence at ANGC.  Holes # 1 and # 8 have this feature.

As to smaller bunkers that appear further away, I'd say that the bunkers on # 5 may present that illusion.

The first left side bunker on # 3 also presents that illusion, though, once you get up to the bunker, it's larger than it appeared as you were standing on the tee.

# 10 presents a dilema.
After your experiences on the front nine, you're not sure how far the carry bunker is.  It's a fairly short hole, although the wind can and does make it longer, the bunker is easily carried.
I didn't know that, but figured that some risk reward was involved, and, I didn't want to come in from the low side.

Again, the variety in the bunkers, ie, their spacing, size and positioning make the golf course very interesting.

I know some have focused on the greens and their size, but, the bunkers are what give each hole the unique presentation from the tee.

# 11 also presents a dilema, and, another neat feature is the feeding nature of the terrain that directs drives into the centerline fairway bunker.

Another neat feature, used on the 11th, is the use of small dunes to obscure additional areas of fairway.  This makes the fairway look narrower than it really is.

The feature is also used on # 17 green, but, for another purpose, to intimidate the golfer when they contemplate going at a far right hole location, it appears to be an all or nothing shot, a par or a double or worse.

It's quite a unique golf course, one that adds to the quality of golf courses on Long Island.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I'm talking about the 8th at Sebonack, which it get's it's inspiration.

The people that suggested the 19th only as a replacement as the 18th, Jim Urbina was one of them who suggested it to me as such. Not as the tenth as I indicated. My mea culpa.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I'm interested in the thoughts behind leaving the stand of trees short and left of # 6 green, partially obscuring the green, especially from the left side of the fairway.

When you consider a prevailing wind, the left to right slope of the fairway and the right side fairway bunker, aren't golfers going to favor the left side of a relatively narrow fairway, leaving them with a far more difficult approach, especially to any left side hole location ?