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Jason Topp

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Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« on: June 28, 2006, 11:36:53 PM »
I played in an event at this club and greatly enjoyed it despite playing very poorly.  The course features 6 par fives - most of which are reachable, 5 par threes - none over 200 yards, and a full variety of par fours, ranging from 330 to 440 in length.

I'm not very familiar with Tillinghast's work, having only played Rochester CC and seen the recent photos of Winged Foot.  Some random thoughts:

1.  Each of these courses force the player to work the ball one way or the other if he hits driver off the tee.  I found it great fun to try and pull off those shots and they posed interesting dilemmas off the tee - the choice being a straight shot with a shorter club and no chance to reach the green on a par five, or a 200 yard approach on a par four vs. bending it and gaining an advantage of 50 yards or more.  Was Tillinghast an advocate of using trees for this purpose?  I have not seen another architect's courses that so consistently pose this challenge in a way that results in fun, as opposed to penal play.

2.  Golden Valley had sod faced bunkers, which surprised me.  Did Tillinghast vary his bunker style from location to location?  What would influence the choice?

3.  I was surprised at the lack of a long par three at Golden Valley.  The longest one was about 190 and slightly uphill.  Most were in the 170 range with very different effective distances because of topography.  Did Tillinghast not like long par threes?

4.  The best hole at Golden Valley in my view was 15, a 420 yard straight par four along a railway line to the left.  The green slopes significantly from right to left.  A tee shot close to the out of bounds markers catches a downslope, propelling the ball within 100-125 yards of the green and leaves a shot straight up the slope of the green.  

Our group demonstrated the myriad of experiences one can face on the hole:

I bailed out right off the tee and wound up with a 140 yard shot from the intermediate rough.  My well-struck shot landed on the front of the green and shot to the back left corner, leaving a very difficult up and down from just off the fringe.  I made 6.  

One player hit a tee shot that caught a tree to keep it in bounds, hit an iron to the front of the green and sank a long putt for three.  

Another went left off the tee but did not hit it well.  He snagged in the rough, leaving a 185 yard approach from a downhill lie in the rough (at least a five).  

Another player hit the perfect tee shot to the left, leaving 100 yards.  He got conservative with his wedge and left a 50 footer for birdie, which he two putted by making about a 5 foot putt.

There are some bunkers on the hole, but they are not needed, the fairway and green slopes. combined with the threat of out of bounds makes every shot a choice, with no clear answers.

5.  It seemed to me that a player with dodgy iron play (such as me) might be best served by following the Billy Casper strategy on nearly all holes - leaving the ball short and then chipping and putting uphill to the hole.  Anyone try that approach on a Tillinghast course?  
 

John_Conley

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Re:Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 11:42:02 PM »
I love Golden Valley and frequently tell people I like it as much as any club in the Twin Cities.

One knock is that it is short, but I find this is remedied by considering a par 70 and playing holes like 1 and 6 as par 4s.  Another knock is that the par 3s are all about a 6-iron.

But I love the place.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 12:05:44 AM »
John & Jason,

I just answered an email by suggesting an architect visit thiis course and examine the angles that Tilly designed into it.

Jason, to give some answer your questions:

#1 - Here are a few of Tilly's thoughts on trees & golf course design:
 
“There is no doubt that a solitary tree… renders the judgment of distance very easy.”

“Our eyes, accustomed to the sight of many trees, rather accustom themselves to distances when one tree stands out prominently as a guide. This is the best explanation I can offer. Without a doubt many advance more subtle reasons, but the fact remains – a lone tree, standing near the end of a shot, makes the distance much easier to gauge, particularly if it be in full view… Some of the most attractive holes have been made through wooded tracts, but with many trees on either side of the fairway the guiding virtue of solitary trees is not in evidence.”

“Fairways should be rather irregular in shape and not like bowling alleys extending through the woods.”

“Certainly the irregular clearing of trees deserves more than a passing thought… let it be said that money spent on expert care of the club’s fine trees is money well spent. If the budget must be cut, spare that set aside for the trees…”

“… it must be borne in mind that the inland courses of America are an overwhelming majority and it is to the fine specimen trees, peculiar to the various localities, that we may
for a moment direct our thought. Whenever one of the fine old fellows rears his branches in solitary splendor it immediately occurs to the architect that here is something that needs nothing except a whole lot of letting alone.”

“It has been mentioned that every effort is directed to the swinging of holes, not only to save fine specimen trees, but to make them serve a definite purpose in the playing of the game. But often we find a large copse or a thick forest which must be penetrated. Those who grieve because of this necessity do not realize fully that opening up the fairway will not be a program of indiscriminate destruction but rather a painstaking effort to cut through in such a manner as to bring to view the best trees which long have been hidden away among unlovely companions. Woods are like communities and trees are like men. In each there are a lot of common nuisances and parasites that are best out of the picture altogether. In every forest you will find some rare old trees, oaks and elms, sycamores and hickories that have been hidden away from sight for many years with a tangle of nondescripts all about them. These we save, of course, as much as possible.”

“An honest old tree can be very sympathetic and comforting if the golfer will take the time to look into its serenely complacent face and feel that way about it.”

#2 - Yes. Several things beginning with the approach he desired into the green and the land where it was located among others. Always though, it began with the approach to the green.

#3 - 190 uphill (even slightly) was a pretty long par-three back in the nmid-20s when the course was designed.

#4 - How did you find Bassett's creek impact (alongside #10?) and how Tilly used it?

#5 - I was brought up worshipping Arnie and the idea that a hero was the one who always tried the impossible. If I was Mickelson's caddy, I would have had the driver in hand for him while in the 17th fairway and would have been looking over every tree I could for shot #2!  ;D To the detriment of my score there is never a lay-up in my game!

John_Conley

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Re:Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 12:42:57 AM »
5.  It seemed to me that a player with dodgy iron play (such as me) might be best served by following the Billy Casper strategy on nearly all holes - leaving the ball short and then chipping and putting uphill to the hole.  Anyone try that approach on a Tillinghast course?  
 

In my 1992 interview with Tim Herron on my community television show, Tim recounted his round and beamed with great pride that he made it around all 54 holes in the State Am without hitting it above the hole.

Key to his victory in the event was playing the par 5s 7 under par in his 2nd Round en route to a brilliant 65.  I believe he hit all six in two.

I used to play short on #8 at Interlachen any time the pin was in the front right for this very reason.  I don't care about hitting the green if I can't make par.

Jason Topp

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 11:36:36 AM »
John & Jason,



#4 - How did you find Bassett's creek impact (alongside #10?) and how Tilly used it?



Phillip - thank you for all of the wonderful information.  #10 was my first hole of the day.  I chose a too conservative line off the tee and was stymied by a tree through the fairway after killing my drive.  Thus, I did not get to experience the fairway on the hole.

The creek seemed used perfectly.  It entices an agressive tee shot over the corner and then, combined with the slope of the green, creates a real decision for the approach - a bailout right when going for the green in two leaves a very difficult pitch to a green that slopes away.  One may be better off laying up short, but who wants to do that?


 

   

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 11:50:45 AM »

“An honest old tree can be very sympathetic and comforting if the golfer will take the time to look into its serenely complacent face and feel that way about it.”


What a wonderful sentence.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff Shelman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Tillinghast - Golden Valley CC
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2006, 02:32:23 PM »
This is actually the golf course closest to my house. (I can probably get it on the NW corner of the property with about an 8-iron, max. I've only played there a couple of times, but it is a course that has grown on me (yes, John it's better than I initially thought).

I think the elevation changes and angles used throughout the course make it very interesting.

About No. 10 -- I have no idea what to really do there. I don't know what the line is and I don't know where to put the second shot.