Why doesn't Rees Jones get any love?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
I do tend to agree with you, but in the case of Riviera, it is clearly an owner and his representitive, as well as a mindset to start on something and then completely switch gears completely foregoing that cohesiveness of which you speak.

Where else would this happen but in LA-LA Land? (Lotusland)

[Mike_Cirba]

Will those who enjoy Rees Jones original courses please stand up and tell us exactly what they find so intriguing, captivating, interesting, visually appealing, and creative?

Don't just tell others that they are unknowingly biased against Rees when folks like Brad Klein and others have detailed what they find questionable and objectionable about courses of his they've seen and played in countless threads and posts here over the years.  

So if you think Rees gets a bum deal here, tell us about his work and what you enjoy.   C'mon...shout it loud and proud...let's hear it.

Stand by your man!!!    

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul and I differ on this issue.
He feels that architects are more important than the driving force behind a project.  I feel that the driving force will determine the outcome of the project, not the architect.
That the architect is an instrument of the driving force, an artisan, who works his craft within the confines of the marching orders.
Where an architect is given a free hand, his work speaks for itself.
Where other factors come into play, those factors must be revealed and factored into the equation before assigning credit or blame."

Patrick:

We do differ on the subject of architects and clients but not exacltly in the way you just mentioned. You think memberships bear responsibility for the outcome of projects in all cases and ways and I'm afraid that is just not the way it works in reality on many projects.

Of course since the golf course is the responsibiltiy of those who represent memberships then obviously they probably do bear ultimate responsibility for it but I've seen a number of clubs who with the best intentions depend on various architects to give them a "restoration", for instance. The fact is most all memberships have never done anything like that before and it's impossible to expect them to know all the pitfalls involved for that reason alone.

So, they have this mentality that if they just tell ANY architect that they want a restoration they will get the same thing from any and ever architect or the thing they want.

That is just a flat-ass fallacy because so many architects themselves have vastly different opinions of what to do even if the membership asks for a restoration.

In other words, if you think those who tell any architect to give them a restoration will get the same thing even if they try to monitor the hell out of all the details then you are still denser than even I think you are.  

For God Sakes, I've seen a few clubs whose representatives went into a restoration project virtually clueless of most everything to do with the restoratin project and have the restoration work out beautifully. The fact is they just lucked out and picked a really great restorer without even realizing it.  
 

[Tim Pitner]

Tom Paul,

I'd like to know more about the "flat-ass" fallacy?  I took some philosophy courses in college, but never came across that one.  It sounds like the title of a Ludlum book.

[TEPaul]

TimP:

You got me on what the philosophy of the "flat-ass Fallacy" is but give me some time---I'll come up with something.  

I may be wrong but I think I picked up that "flat-ass" remark from that old Paris Kentucky girlfriend of mine, Clay Hancock. She had a saying like that for every conceivable situation.

One time as the both of us were firing down bourbons out there on Claiborne Farm she decided to get her dog drunk too so she started putting some bourbon in his water bowl and of course he lapped it all up. The dog started staggering and having a hard time remaining standing. I thought that seemed unusually cruel and I told her I should report her to the SPCA but she said as far as she could see he was only "knee-walking" drunk and there was nothing wrong with that. She said if she gave him a few more drinks he might get "butt-hole" drunk and then I could report her to the SPCA.  

[ForkaB]

Bravissimo, Tomasso!

[Gib_Papazian]

It has been getting near four years since I had dinner with Rees and a coterie of shotus-enormi in Newport, R.I. . . . Including David Fay, who stated clearly that golf was actually his "4th favorite sport" after pursuits like indoor tennis."    

My dear departed friend Rick Short had been invited to play in the Havermeyer Cup and showed the poor judgment to bring me along as his partner.

Some thoughts:

#1. Rees bristled the moment we were introduced.  It was crystal clear that Rees had read some of my snot filled rants against his work. A trifle chilly it was - with him seated across from me.

#2. "Strike two" was my thoughtless admission of a friendship with Doak and even worse - his brother. Actually, looking back, it was closer to "strike four" - if there *is* such a thing.

#3. Rees does not like criticism of his work. I tried to soften  some of my written comments, but he was clearly not amused and neither was David Fay. Why a gigantasaurus like  Rees would give a sh*t what some pipsqueak dicknose writes on an obscure website remains a mystery.

#4. One of my friends - formerly with the USGA - and in front of Tom Paul as I recall - gleefully told me that Rees thought I was a complete ass and an opinionated lush besides. I was so annoyed that after knocking it three feet on #5 at PV, the  Armenian did not even hit the hole with the putt.

Tough to argue with his assessment . . .  .  .

However, none of this matters because even had he kissed my ring and asked my opinion on bunker strategies, I've only played one golf course he designed that impressed me.

MPCC Dunes.

That is it.

Atlantic was so bad it nearly brought on a architectural aneurysm right there on the 14th green.

By all accounts - and I have said this before - most people think he is a nice man. Any friend of Mucci is okay with me. But how in the world can anybody who has a locker in the shadow of the "magic windmill" come up with such repetitious pap?

There is almost never an interior hazard or quirky, original feature. Everything is set at the perimeter of the playing area, with little room to run the ball.  Ground game is almost nonexistent.

NGLA is his home course!

I used to cap on Nicklaus, but at least the work has "style" - like it or not. And at least Fazio can conjure up the "wow factor" - which feeds the masses. I've no complaint if a developer chooses him because you are certainly going to get a beautiful, interesting golf course.

Rees seems neither fish nor fowl - and I think that is at the heart of the matter. That does not mean he needs to draw it up like Mike Strantz, but places like Torrey Pines just lack soul. Everything works, nothing is controversial; it just gives me a visceral sensation of an antiseptic obstacle course.  

Every course (except for MPCC) is just straightforward  and hard. That is it. Rees is a short knock so I wonder how he can be so insensitive to players like himself.

         

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Gib,
More proof of how you are sorely missed on this site. (when you post so infrequently.)

I'm glad my name didn't come-up in that conversation with his-Reesness. I'm afraid of just what that would have wrought upon you!

[BCrosby]

Is "butt-hole drunk" onomatopoetic, or is my imagination in overdrive?

[Michael Dugger]

Oh how I love a good Rees Jones thread, it seems to be the only thing to get Gib Papazian to come out of the woodwork anymore.

I am wondering?  Where is the Mike Cirba post with all the attrocious images of Rees Jones' courses?  The one with all the heinous bunkering?

If I have learned anything on gca.com over the years it is that different people go for different things in their golf courses.  

I'd never be caught dead driving a Buick Regal, but some people love 'em.

So I guess it is a big wide world and room enough for everyone in it, or something like that, to quote Tom Paul.

I prefer a more "sporting" course than "championship."  I prefer a golf course that appears to have been seamlessly integrated into the landscape.  I prefer a routing that stirs the soul.

Sandpines does not do that for me, not in the least.

 

[Dan Herrmann]

By the way, I don't like his work either, but I don't think it's the worst stuff out there.   He has a new course in my area code (Ledgerock in Lancaster) that I'll need to check out.

[Mike_Cirba]

I am wondering?  Where is the Mike Cirba post with all the attrocious images of Rees Jones' courses?  The one with all the heinous bunkering?

Michael,

Flogging a dead horse grows tiresome, even if the originals were pretty damn funny.  

It's sort of like shooting a buffalo in a closet, to steal a line I read someone else use on here recently.

Still, hope reigns supreme, as I am truly excited to see the new course he has opening next month in my neighborhood.  I'm hoping for another course equal to Olde Kinderhook, or perhaps a Huntsville, which is a very good course on GREAT land.  

Guess we'll see.

[Michael Dugger]

I am wondering?  Where is the Mike Cirba post with all the attrocious images of Rees Jones' courses?  The one with all the heinous bunkering?

Michael,

Flogging a dead horse grows tiresome, even if the originals were pretty damn funny.  

It's sort of like shooting a buffalo in a closet, to steal a line I read someone else use on here recently.

Still, hope reigns supreme, as I am truly excited to see the new course he has opening next month in my neighborhood.  I'm hoping for another course equal to Olde Kinderhook, or perhaps a Huntsville, which is a very good course on GREAT land.  

Guess we'll see.

Wesley Snipes' great line from White Men Can't Jump comes to mind here.

"The sun even shines on a dog's ass once in a while."

[John Kavanaugh]

Still, hope reigns supreme, as I am truly excited to see the new course he has opening next month in my neighborhood.  

Mike,

Why not send the owners a few of your funny quips before you go milk another free round on the backs of the members of another fine club.  Hey,  if you decide to pay send me the receipt and I will send you a check for half....Happy golfing..

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Thanks for your offer.  The receipt will be in the mail.  Just shoot me your mailing address.

Could we make this a regular thing?  Since I've paid out of pocket for every single round I've played this year, I could certainly use your help.

And, my comment about being excited to play the course is sincere.  I told you about how great Olde Kinderhook is years back so I have no predisposition to not like his courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Send the receipt to:

John Kavanaugh
P.O. Box 551
Lawrenceville, IL 62439

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Send the receipt to:

John Kavanaugh
P.O. Box 551
Lawrenceville, IL 62439

John,

Expect it towards the end of July.

Thanks!

[Dan Kelly]

send me the receipt and I will send you a check for half....

Now there's a club I'd belong to!

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

Send the receipt to:

John Kavanaugh
P.O. Box 551
Lawrenceville, IL 62439

John,

Expect it towards the end of July.

Thanks!

Mike,

What is the name of the club...I've been on Rees's website and can't find anything new in your area..

[Dan Kelly]

I'm hoping for another course equal to Olde Kinderhook....  

On a more serious note:

You have spoken repeatedly of your appreciation of O.K.

Why do you suppose it turned out so much better (in your opinion, of course) than other Rees Jones courses of your acquaintance?

A Rees Jones virgin (other than the redesigned holes at Hazeltine),

Dan

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

The club that's opening is called LedgeRock, opening around 7/15, I believe.

It's about 15 min. from my house.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

The club that's opening is called LedgeRock, opening around 7/15, I believe.

It's about 15 min. from my house.

Whew...I called em and they said greenfees are only 80 bucks...Hell, you  don't even need to send me a receipt...I'll take your word for it if you pay at that rate.

Good Luck...I'd be excited too if it was near me..

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm hoping for another course equal to Olde Kinderhook....  

On a more serious note:

You have spoken repeatedly of your appreciation of O.K.

Why do you suppose it turned out so much better (in your opinion, of course) than other Rees Jones courses of your acquaintance?

I'll resist the cheap joke and say simply that I think that in the case of the big firms like Fazio and Rees, the associate in charge of the job is sometimes very, very critical to the outcome.  

The one who did OK seems to have done some other courses I've heard mentioned favorably by some on here, including Briars Creek, Quintero, and Pine Hills in MA, as well as Dacotah Ridge in western MN.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Quintero?

Quintero?

Are you kidding me? If Old Kinderhook is anything like Quintero......

[SPDB]

I'm asking because I've actually avoided Rees Jones courses because of what I've read here....

(don't shoot me - I'm just asking  )

This is one of the biggest problems on this website, in my opinion. It threatens the legitimacy of the site (to the extent it enjoys any in the first instance). I see people falling into this tendency all the time (i.e. avoiding an architect's courses because of what they read here).  What's more, many people submit themselves lemming-like to the indoctrination of the "expert" architectural critics and simply adopt, either implicitly or explicitly, the party line about certain architects.

[If this has already been discussed on this thread, I apologize - i don't have any time to read thru it. So there you have it, the ultimate in hypocrisy - a lazy bird, lecturing lazy birds - caveat emptor.]