Why doesn't Rees Jones get any love?

[Dan Herrmann]

I was re-reading Brad Klein's book, "Rough Meditations", and he had a chapter on East Lake GC in Atlanta.  In his essay, he noted that Rees Jones was chosen to work on the course and he performed his usual magic.

OK - I really dislike his Tattersall course in SE Pennsylvania (which I think has one of the better first holes I've ever seen), but has the treehouse been overly harsh in its criticism of Mr. Jones?

I'm asking because I've actually avoided Rees Jones courses because of what I've read here, but after reading Brad's essay, I'm thinking that I may have over-reacted, and should try to see more of his work.

(don't shoot me - I'm just asking  )

[T_MacWood]

Dan
I think East Lake is a good example of why Rees Jones doesn't get more love: his total disregard for classic golf courses. Where once was a Ross course is now a Rees course...I guess that is a form of magic.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Or maybe the world is bigger than 1500 posters at GCA.com.

"Rees has been recognized many times for his contributions to the game. His awards include the 1998 Metropolitan Golf Association Distinguished Service Award, the 2002 Metropolitan Golf Writers Distinguished Service Award, Golf World Magazine's 1995 Golf Architect of the Year, The Golf Course Superintendents Association of America's Old Tom Morris Award in 2004, two architectural awards from the International Network of Golf, and the 2000 Robert Morris Award of the Welsh Society of Philadelphia. In addition, since its inception, Rees has been included on Golf Digest Magazine's list of the top five architects (Currently number two)."

Dan,

Go play Atlantic and Olde Kinderhook. I have no interest in playing Stone Eagle, but I have lots of interest in playing Ocean Forest. Rees has probably "missed" a few more than some favored archietcts here, but have you ever heard of client complaints?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Are there any architects working today with over 100 designs in their portfolio that get any kind of love from this group?  Fortunately for most golf course architects this group doesn't do the hiring.  

With this group you better be dead or one of the chosen few.  We are after all the trainspotters of golf course architecture.  

[Rob_Waldron]

For some reason it seems to me that some of Rees' best work is renovation work. He did a wonderful job at Congressional and Bethpage Black. I gues renovations require different skill sets than ground up design.

I have particularly enjoyed Briar's Creek outside of Kiawah. I also like Tattersall. He faced numerous obstacles from the local authorities who dictated that the golf holes be routed over the hills instead of the valleys because they did not want the landscape dotted with homes. This is the exact opposite of most residential golf communities where the homes are set above the golf corridors.

With the exception of several holes requireing demanding forced carries The Creek Course at Hammock Dunes is excellent!

[ForkaB]

I've only played 2 Rees courses (one remodel, one new), but they were both well above average, and I would gladly play them again.  There are some people on this site who don't like him for whatever reason and just like to rant--at least as far as I can see.

If I were you I'd try a few of his courses and decide for yourself.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Rees Jones has invented a new term in golf course architecture- " a Rees-storation." Geoff Shackelford just visited Medinah and will report on the results there.

Rob:

Tattersall was once described here as " D+ golf, A+ cart ride."

I didn't care for it all. It's on my "do not return" list.

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I assume you are damning with faint praise. RJ is indeed an above average architect.  I think what irks people is that an "above average" architect has been given some of the best projects in golf in the last 15 years with unlimited capital resources and what came out of the pipe was above average. Which would not be a big deal but for the fact that there are so many remarkably gifted architects who would have done truly remarkable things if given the same opportunities.

Tom MacW -

Agreed. What happened at East Lake is a long story, but basically you are right.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Bob

Not really.  When I say I would "gladly play" a course again it is pretty high praise from me.  There are more than a few Doak 6s and above out there that I don't really care if I ever see again.

Vis a vis East Lake (which I have not seen), what is it that Rees did badly?  Was it just that he changed some Ross stuff (as Tom MacW seems to be arguing) or is it a worse course than it was before he got there or is it just that you think it could have been done better by others (as you seem to imply)?

It seems to me that the latter argument could apply to any restoration/renovation by any architect.  Certainly, Rees' work at The Country Club and Bethpage Black and the Shore Course at MPCC (one of my two experiences) and even East Lake (if you believe Dr. Klein) seem to have been well received.  Coore and Crenshaw's work at Riviera was apparently not a roaring success.  Do you really want perfection (or even think it is possible)?

I don't.

Rich

[corey miller]

Client complaints?  Why would someone who hires Rees Jones for a new course design in order to sell high-priced memberships complain about Rees?  He is supposed to be a good guy and it only makes selling memberships harder.

I would love for Rees to try to explain the embarrasing work that is in the ground (actually above the ground) at Sleepy Hollow.  Count that as an unhappy client.  

Sleepy Hollow could be the worst Reestoration out there and since nobody at the club wants to take credit maybe Rees could speak up and explain the thought process behind putting a mickey mouse looking bunker complex in front of the par 3 16th short hole with a great view of the palisades and the hudson.

[Bill_McBride]

The first one to mention Sandpines will be shot.  

[ForkaB]

Bill

How would you like the bullet?  Straight between the eyes, or would a simple kneecapping do for now?

[BCrosby]

Rich -

Rees made a number of changes to the old Ross EL. The project was advertised as a restoration of the "spirit" Ross at EL and not a strict restoration. The reason for the "spirit" thing was that they were unable to locate Ross's drawings. They claimed, therefore, to have no clear guidance as to Ross's 1924 course and so Rees was asked to do something in the Ross "mode".

Two problems. First, there were and are plenty of aerials of EL taken not long after Ross's work there. They are easy to find and could have been used as guides. That they made no attempt to dig out easy to dig out aerials suggests a certain predisposition.

Second, the changes actually made to EL are believed by a fairly large concensus down this way to be, in varying degrees, unfortunate. Everyone misses the old 10th. Most people miss the old 17th. Most people are confused about how so many new fronting bunkers are in the "spirit" of Ross.

The old EL was a knarly, bitchy, unkempt but beautiful woman who I found irresistible. The new EL is just a big, tough drill instructor.

Bob

[mike_malone]

 Tattersall is horrible ! Why would I want to see anything else by its designer ?

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Bob

Sounds like "they" (the people who hired Rees and gave him his marching orders) were the main problem.  Now I assume that some if not most of our favored archies would have said:  "No!  I'm not moving an inch of dirt until you find those old aerials!" but is that what the world of golf needs, in all cases?  Change is differerent, but it's not always bad for all of the people, and is often good for most of the people.  IMO.  I feel for your loss of the old 10th and 17th, but I've got a lot of old flames which have passed on to that great black hole in the GCA sky too, and I've gotten over it.  Not that I don't get a tear in my eye when I think of them from time to time....

[ForkaB]

Tattersall is horrible ! Why would I want to see anything else by its designer ?

Mayday.  Phillip Johnson designed a house near where I grew up which was (and is) horribly ugly.  If you took your attitude you wouldn't take the time to look across the street and see another house he built which was and is a thing of stunning beauty.

[James Bennett]

I have played one Rees Jones restoration - MPCC Dunes course.

I found the course to be similar to my wife .  I found the course interesting at the first encounter, but was pleasantly surprised by the deepening of my feelings for the course as time progressed.

I have no knowledge of MPCC Dunes before Rees Jones, and I may not personally like the bunker aesthetics (I come from a land down under, where flashed sand bunkers are more de rigeur), but I would gladly play there again and again if I had the opportunity.

James B

[Rob_Waldron]

Mayday

Hold your horses! Tattersall was a nightmare for the developer, mostly due to township officials without a clue!

I know you are smart enough to realize that the end result of a course design may be completely different from the architects initial design. Why crucify Rees because he chose to take a job with non sensical permitting requirements???

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Of course Rees is an above average architect. He has done some very good work but he has really done some poor work on very visable courses as well. His ego is getting in the way of good restoration opportunities work as well in my opinion.

[mike_malone]

 Hey ! I'm not crucifying anyone. I'm just saying "Life is short!" So, I will spend my golfing time at courses not designed by the guy who put his name on this piece of crap. Why didn't he say " Oh my God ! This isn't my work! Get my name off of it!"


  Rich,

    I commented that Yale was not a good looking course as we played it, but it sure is a good course.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

To simplify things -- I think Rees is blessed with a last name that has speeded up the process in terms of him having a network that his father created years ago.

In addition, Rees has had plenty of intros to some of the most well connected people -- within and outside of golf throughout the USA and globe.

He has had plenty of opportunities to make his mark and sadly the batting average is not on par with some of the more celebrated -- and preferred for some regular posters -- architects here on GCA.

His work at Olde Kinderhook and Ocean Forest are two clear examples when he has done very well. I also think his public contributions have done well in spots -- most notably -- Bryan Park in Greensboro, NC which will host a future US Public Links event, if memory serves.

Unfortunately, there are also courses on the flips side -- his work at Sandpines in OR and Tattersall just outside of Philadelphia are two examples that have always left my head shaking and saying, "What gives here?"

Rob, I here what you say about the permit requirements but at the end of the day whose name is attached to the course as architect. If the restrictions were that severe, and I know them to be the case, then Rees & Keith Evans his associate on the job, could / should have opted to take a pass. They didn't and as a result all the reasons / excuses don't hold water for me on the final result there.

On the restoration front I see things as mixed bag too. Credit him for bringing back interest in TCC and for his work at Congressional -- which was a tired layout before his involvement there. I have mixed feelings for his work at Bethpage Black but I have to say the folks running the show there permitted him to go the direction he chose to make there.

In conclusion, I often find that Rees tries to lay his fingerprints in such a formulaic manner and as a result I get the impression that really "new" ground is not being really pushed -- that a reconfirguration of the same motif is alive and well and often that approach can lessen the quality sites he gets that far exceed what other architects combined will ever have in a lifetime.

[Mike_Cirba]

For some reason it seems to me that some of Rees' best work is renovation work. He did a wonderful job at Congressional and Bethpage Black. I gues renovations require different skill sets than ground up design.

I have particularly enjoyed Briar's Creek outside of Kiawah. I also like Tattersall. He faced numerous obstacles from the local authorities who dictated that the golf holes be routed over the hills instead of the valleys because they did not want the landscape dotted with homes. This is the exact opposite of most residential golf communities where the homes are set above the golf corridors.

With the exception of several holes requireing demanding forced carries The Creek Course at Hammock Dunes is excellent!

Rob,

It's great to see that we still CONSISTENTLY, and to a significant, even passionate degree, DISAGREE on ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!!!    

It's nice to know I have a reverse doppleganger and you do too.  At least we have that going for us.  

[mike_malone]

 Rob,

  I'll try to be nice. If you can tell me Rees was not responsible for placing containment mounds on the hilly holes at this course then I will give him a break. But, that is the dumbest thing I have ever seen on a golf course. If the land is flat it almost makes sense. But for good terrain it is hideous!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich,
Your always pumping me for backing up my ascertations.

Let's see you do the same for C&C at Riviera. Coore & Crenshaw's work at Rivera is much maligned by the pundits such as yourself, with nothing better to do then make ridiculous accusations or suggestive notions.

The truth is that Riviera couldn't have been in better hands with Coore & Crenshaw and if they wouldn't have been dealing with incompentence of  ownership, you wouldn't even be able to bring any of it up. Read Rough Meditations and you will see one of the most researched, true to the mark stories on just who was responsible. It's guys like you who only know how to use your one little iota of a negative to spur it on.  

If your going to besmeerch a group of guys that care more about the work they do, more passionately then anyone I have ever met who took their work seriously, then you beeter be ready to back it all up.  I demand you to show me some proof where they screwed any of it up. Lets see it Rich. Let's see you put that intelligent mind of yours to work and dig-up the information and photo-proof. Otherwise, your words are nothing but complete--and let me spell it out for you--B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

While we're at it Rich, how many C&C courses have you seen and played to judge and give a valid critique? Friar's Head doesn't count because you didn't play there, and frankly, I judge your ability to even look at a course without playing it.

[ForkaB]

.......frankly, I judge your ability to even look at a course without playing it.

Thanks, Tommy.  I didn't know you cared!

I'll go back now to my original post and find out what I actually said about C&C and come back.  Ta Ta fur the noo.

Rich

OK, Tommy, I'm back.

What I said was:

"Coore and Crenshaw's work at Riviera was apparently not a roaring success.  Do you really want perfection (or even think it is possible)?"

Now there's enough waffle in there that I don't even need the Evil Dr. Moriarty to get me out of that one.  Just answer these, please, your highness:

1.  Was C&C's work at Rivieria a "roaring success" (apparently or even actually and regardless of the politics involved)?
2.  Is perfection possible (with Rees, C&C or whomever)?

Rich

PS--I love it when you turn purple in cyberspace!