[Clark]

After the debacle of the course set-up at Carnoustie, the USGA's goofy hole locations at Pinehurst, and the awkward changes to Augusta National, the PGA of America has a rare opportunity to look like heroes who know what they are doing.  If they don't totally screw up Medinah, they can look good.  I'm a little anxious, though, because (1) Medinah sure didn't come across as an impressive course on TV with the '90 Open, (2) the course will measure something like 7400 yards (!) and (3) I seem to recall hearing one PGA official bragginfg about the rough.

[James Clifford]

I haven't played Medinah but Klein in the interview says the course is "stunningly mediocre." I imagine it will be another loser served up on a platter by the PGA.

[Ran Morrissett]

It will be a dark day in Gotham if Medinah comes off looking better than Pinehurst and Carnoustie. Unfortunately, the PGA have never shown any flair in course set-up either.Name the PGA Championship course that was set up the best in recent memory. I honestly would be at a loss to think of an example where the set-up enhanced the playing characteristics of the course.

[Tom T.]

Medinah #3 is at best just an ok course.  The changes made for the 1990 US Open enabled the membership there to realize how bad the course really was.  Unfortunately, the changes made for this summer's PGA Championship have only upgraded the course to acceptable.  The PGA of America will have instructed the club to have grown deep rough and surely the course will be in great condition (why shouldn't it be, they've known for five years the event was coming!).  Medinah has way too many trees, goofy par four holes that dogleg too quickly from the tee or have fairways that slope away from greens.  The membership was left with a bad taste for the USGA after the 1990 Open and reacted by getting in bed with the PGA for not only their Championship but the big event: the Ryder Cup.  Not bad for a club without a decent course.  The best thing going for it is that it's near Chicago.

[JR Potts]

Shiv:

How did you like the new tee on 11?

And I read the above posts.  One in particular mentioned the rough.  I played Medinah before the 99 PGA and I play in quite often now - the 99 rough looked like fairway compared to what is out there right now.

The tree removal program and new irrigation has made the rough unlike anything I've ever seen.  And it really isn't that long.....just thick.

[Glenn Spencer]

I have never looked at it as mediocre at all. My question that I started a thread on about a week that merited a whopping 0 replies was, Is number 2, too early in the round? I am having trouble thinking of a hole like that on another championship course that comes that early, especially when you are hitting wedge on number 1.

[JESII]

Glenn,

I vaguely remember your thread, but do not know the course to comment. Is it a long par three? #2 at Shinnecock is 225 uphill. But it may well be the easiest par three on the course so it may not count for your topic.

[JR Potts]

I personally think the second hole is in a perfect spot.  Remember, Medinah was designed (redesigned) to be a major championship golf course.  That being said, I love it that there is a firm test to the golfers on the second hole of play.  The players are immediately tested and set-back (or launched) in their attempt at genearting some rhythm early in their round.  Plus, they get a break (read birdie holes) on 1, 3 and 5.  

EDIT - JES:  It is a 194 yard par three over water to a nice sized green.  However, if the pin is in the back left, it becomes a very small green.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

I vaguely remember your thread, but do not know the course to comment. Is it a long par three? #2 at Shinnecock is 225 uphill. But it may well be the easiest par three on the course so it may not count for your topic.

JES,

I love Shinnecock's second, it was the last hole I played there and I hit a good 3-iron. Medinah's second is played over a big lake (Kadijah) and I thought that it was in excess of 200 yards, I am referring to the water and the length combination. I can't think of any other championship course that has this forced carry this early. Can anybody think of one?

[Glenn Spencer]

I personally think the second hole is in a perfect spot.  Remember, Medinah was designed (redesigned) to be a major championship golf course.  That being said, I love it that there is a firm test to the golfers on the second hole of play.  The players are immediately tested and set-back (or launched) in their attempt at genearting some rhythm early in their round.  Plus, they get a break (read birdie holes) on 1, 3 and 5.  

You would certainly know better than me, I was just asking. It just shows how bad I am, it always seemed early to me. I am sure that after the practice rounds and all it is fine. Are there any other courses like this though?

[JR Potts]

I can't think of one.  (Although I wouldn't like to have to tee off on the back at Augusta).  But my golf course knowlege isn't as diverse as many on this board.  And #2 is only a 6-iron (maybe a 5 for the short hitters and a 7 for the crazy long hitters).  With as good as these guys hit it, I don't think it is asking too much.  However, there will be a guy who makes a 7 or 8 on day one.

[Glenn Spencer]

I can't think of one.  (Although I wouldn't like to have to tee off on the back at Augusta).  But my golf course knowlege isn't as diverse as many on this board.  And #2 is only a 6-iron (maybe a 5 for the short hitters and a 7 for the crazy long hitters).  With as good as these guys hit it, I don't think it is asking too much.  However, there will be a guy who makes a 7 or 8 on day one.

Starting on 10 at Augusta is a daunting proposition, the only thing is that 12 is the third hole and not the biggest iron that you have hit to that point, kind of a saving grace, I guess. Medinah #2 is only a six-iron? That is much better then. I must be remembering from 90 too much, it seemed a lot longer then.

[JR Potts]

I can't think of one.  (Although I wouldn't like to have to tee off on the back at Augusta).  But my golf course knowlege isn't as diverse as many on this board.  And #2 is only a 6-iron (maybe a 5 for the short hitters and a 7 for the crazy long hitters).  With as good as these guys hit it, I don't think it is asking too much.  However, there will be a guy who makes a 7 or 8 on day one.

Starting on 10 at Augusta is a daunting proposition, the only thing is that 12 is the third hole and not the biggest iron that you have hit to that point, kind of a saving grace, I guess. Medinah #2 is only a six-iron? That is much better then. I must be remembering from 90 too much, it seemed a lot longer then.

Remember, they were still hitting Balata balls in '90.  

[Lou_Duran]

Blessed are those who play such great courses which empowers them to relegate Medinah #3 to "ok" or "mediocre" status.  On the other hand, I consider myself very lucky to occasionally play a course in Medinah's class and come away with great admiration, respect, and appreciation.  I suppose that my more populist mindset allows me to derive joy from playing the common, pedestrian courses without dulling my appreciation for the truly outstanding.  

I've only played #3 once, thanks to the considerable efforts of a frequent poster here.  For a course that's considered so average by some, it sure gets a lot of play.  I was expecting an extremely long, one-dimensional course narrowly routed through a dense forest.  Instead, to my delight, I found golf that's demanding but "honest", full of opportunities- even from the woods- and interesting shot values.  It does require hitting the ball solidly, but I think that length is secondary to smart play.  As I recall, three of the par 3s are drop shots over water, two are in the same orientation, but depending on course setup, each calls for a different club and shot selection.  

The trees will definitely get one's attention, but even to a short and crooked player like me, they did not detract from the experience.  I was in the woods quite a bit, and I generally had some recovery options including to the green.  I don't know if the rough has been grown to preclude some of these. Also, there may have been some further tree removal since my time there in October, 2004.  

[PCCraig]

I have only played Medinah a couple times, but both times I walked away disappointed. I feel as though every hole is approached with the same mentality...hit it long and straight...get it to the middle of the green....and try to two putt. Fine for a PGA I suppose, but not for a "fun"  round of golf.

[JR Potts]

Here's how Medinah #3 will play in the PGA:
Hole #1 - 3 Wood, 8 iron (some may hit driver PW although there is little reason to do so)
Hole #2 - 6 iron
Hole #3 - 3 Wood, 8 iron
Hole #4 - Driver, 6 iron
Hole #5 - Driver, 4 wood if going for it, 6 iron if not, then SW.
Hole #6 - Driver, 4 iron
Hole #7 - Driver, 5 iron, PW
Hole #8 - 4/5 iron
Hole #9 - 2 iron, (or hit huge slinging Driver), 5 iron
Hole #10 - Driver, 4 iron, SW
Hole #11 - Driver, 8 iron
Hole #12 - Driver, 6 iron
Hole #13 - 3 iron
Hole #14 - Driver, 5 iron, 9 iron
Hole #15 - 3 Wood, 8 iron
Hole #16 - 3 Wood, 4 iron
Hole #17 - 8 iron
Hole #18 - Driver, 8 iron

Seems to me like Medinah sets up for the best players in the world to hit every shot in their bag...with no tricks.  In my opinion, that says a lot about the quality of the golf course.  (But I'm biased  ).

EDIT - And Pat, I will concede that Medinah #3 is not fun (depending on the company though).  However, it wasn't built to be fun.  I was built to be tough, fair and host major championships.

[JR Potts]

Sand Wedge is crazy.  I've hit nine...maybe even wedge.....but sand wedge, that's nuts.  I usually hit 7...so that is probably more accurate.

[Michael Kennedy]

Mike K hit a SAND WEDGE into #12, and as you know, Ryan, there isn't much room to go back on that tee.  We played it from about dead center of the tee.  6 iron is light...I was stunned...

Shiv,
It was a wedge, not a SW.  I remember the yardage - 131 to the hole, pin cut on the front third of the green.  That said, I'm sure a fair number of pros will only have SW yardage left.  The hole would be a much better test if the approach was from 180y off of a fade sidehill lie.  I think it would take a headwind of 30mph and wet fairways to see this happen - or persimmon/balata.

All in all, Medina was a fair test and a very difficult one at that. The rough was 4" all around and VERY, VERY thick.  If it is not trimmed before the PGA, as is rumored, I see 7,651y + narrow + hay = -6 at best.

A design issue which I am still fretting over is the (redesign) loss of a shortish par 4 along the lake in the general vicinity of #2 green (according to Shivas)   Without reviewing the entire topo map, it's hard for me to tell how this would change the routing for better or worse.  But using the lake for three grossly similar one-shotters over water is a design opportunity lost.

Shiv - what do you recall about the lost par 4?

[Michael Kennedy]

Like I said in my previous post, it's hard to say how a short par 4 would fit into the greater routing.  But when you mentioned this past hole as we left the second green, I took a peek at the general area where the shooting range currently sits and could envision a cool, short par 4 (which the current routing lacks).

Let's get a topo map, a six-pack, and figure it out  

I disagree that the water is not in play, especially on 17.  With the pin cut on the right side of the green, it can't be more than ~10 paces from the bulkhead on the water to the rough behind.  That's a pretty narrow target from 200 yards + wind.  If the wind is blowing at all, even #2 could be tricky.

[Michael Kennedy]

BTW, did you notice that it's the #8 handicap?  I've said it before -- that is the hardest #8 handicap hole in the history of golf.  I was shocked at how easy you made it play after that tee shot.  I have never seen that before, even at the 99 PGA.  That's the honest truth.  I have never seen someone play that hole without at some point, sniffing bogey...

You're giving me waaayyy too much credit.  I was definitely sniffing bogey standing over a very slick 20 foot downhill, sidehill putt.  That hole is the poster child for take-par-and-get-the-hell-out-of-there.

[JR Potts]

The hole Shivas pointed out was probably the old 18th.  It was a 360ish yard par four that doglegged right to where the flagpole is behind 18.  The current 13 used to be the 17th.  I can assure you that there was never a hole by the gun club.

And not to play into anyones hands here, but the real #1 handicap hole is #2.  However, seeing a 19 get up to the tee with two shots is a little too hard to bear.  However, I should check into the rehandicapping as I know it was done a year or so ago.

And Kennedy, you are a llama....most guys will be hitting 7 iron into that green...no doubt about it.  And if the pin is in the back left or back middle, watch out.

[Gerry B]

played there many times - most recently played in their annual member guest which was moved up to late may due to the pga

course is 7508 from the plates -some of the rees jones changes are improvements - ie 5, 15 and 18 - but overall - long and boring is my assessment of the course. too many similar holes  - lacks soul for lack of a better word. i do however like  the club, staff and members better than the course(s).

in chicagoland there are much more compelling layouts - ie Chicago GC, Shoreacres,Skokie(so i am told) and as a tournament venue Olympia Fields is a much more interesting course  -especially the back nine.

IMHO

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas, et al:

Did you see the poll Digest is running on the 17th hole at Medinah #3 ?

It's in the current issue -- Whitten is the author.

Be curious to what you think. The new version by Rees does look well beyond what Packard and Rulewich did.

[JR Potts]

I saw the poll and don't really understand it.

The first picture is the current 13th, the second is a lot like the current hole (4th photo) but had an unworkable green and the third photo (1999 17th) is and always will be a travesty.

It would be great if the current 13th could be the 17th but it can't.  As such, it isn't much of a poll in my opinion.

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