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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2006, 10:38:34 AM »
Jerry,

I associate punchbowl greens with punchbowl surroundings.

I don't think a punchbowl like green can be considered a true punchbowl without the surrounding features accentuating the punchbowl.

Mike Hendren

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2006, 10:38:41 AM »
Interestingly, The Other Senior Tour played Black Creek this spring.  The other seven guys, who could care less about architecture, absolutely loved the alps/punchbowl but thought the Biarritz was "goofy golf."

Go figure.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 10:39:09 AM by Bogey_Hendren »
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George_Bahto

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2006, 10:47:27 AM »
Jerry: There is one factor many people do not like on this type hole - they do not like the fact they cannot see the ball land

....  to me this is part of the charm and great mystery of the hole.

They should be used prudently and sparingly but when done right, they're awesome - especially when combined with interesting bunkering and, like the NGLA 16th fairway, like the deep bowls left and right of the prime landing area. When in those deep hollows, now you are sort of "double-blind"

You can sort of simulate an interesting punchbowl by berming it on 3 sides and if you are on flat topo, aside from moving tons of material and having it look phony un-natural and contrived, this may be your only option.

You can't just build a back berm (backstop) and call it a punchbowl. To have these look sort-of-natural, the berming would have to be minimal.

Going back to early golf in Europe, many greens were placed into hollows because that's where the best grasses grew because it was where water accumulated.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
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Bob Jenkins

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2006, 10:52:44 AM »

As I recall, the 13th green at the North Berwick West Links, just over the stone wall, would meet the definition of a punchbowl green. The hole was named "Pit".

Bob Jenkins

Jerry Kluger

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2006, 10:59:18 AM »
George: I'm trying to remember the Punchbowl at Essex County - please help refresh my memory.

George_Bahto

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2006, 11:34:48 AM »
Jerry: hole 14 ........  360+, slightly uphill, strip crossbunkers left and right in landing area, a huge Lion's Mounth bunker guarding the center-line to the green, 2 ramps of sorts left and right into the green and the firgure-8 shaped, 2 level green.

Hole is bermed back, left, right, and the LM bunker in front

this is a really neat hole

It HAD a number of RTJ-inspired line of large pines behind the green - these are now gone and the greensite just sits there nicely up on the hill.

It is just before the downhill Biarrtiz

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Evan Fleisher

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2006, 11:39:33 AM »

As I recall, the 13th green at the North Berwick West Links, just over the stone wall, would meet the definition of a punchbowl green. The hole was named "Pit".

Bob Jenkins

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John Foley

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2006, 11:51:55 AM »
Pete - That is one of the great greens that many will never see. The time's I've played Wverly i just wait to hit that approach.

DLIII's team built a neat on on Hole # 2 at Ocean Creek north of Hilton Head. If Paul C is around maybee he can comment on that. It's a short part 4 and is very cool to play.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Jerry Kluger

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2006, 11:56:43 AM »
George and Pat: Perhaps one day we could have a GCA event at Essex County - do they have outsiders on Mondays?

John_Cullum

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Re:Punchbowl Green: A feature of the past or simply overlooked today?
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2006, 12:21:26 PM »
Would the lack of punchbowl holes being built over the last many years have a lot to do with drainage in other than sandy soils....................................................


From what I am seeing here, and based on my own experience, it seems punchbowl greens are being built quite regularly. My home course has one, or maybe even two that meet the qualifications. Lake jovita North course #7 and maybe # 14.
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