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james soper

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garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« on: June 26, 2006, 12:08:28 PM »
golf channel's brandel chamblee was covering the champions tour at eisenhower park on long island this past weekend and commented how he had been out to play garden city, shinnecock, and sebonack. he didn't comment on shinnecock or sebonack, but spent all his time gushing about garden city. for those in the treehouse who have played or seen all three, would garden city top their list?

Glenn Spencer

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 12:19:46 PM »
I have only played Garden City and the first 2 holes at Shinnecock. It would not surprise me that anyone gushed over Garden City, it is amazing.

Mike Hendren

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2006, 12:20:38 PM »
James,

I was pausing at work and day-dreaming about Shinnecock, something I find myself doing frequently lately, when your thread popped up.  I can't comment on the other two courses as you requested, but I'm not so sure that Shinnecock isn't the greatest golf course in America.  The biggest surprise is that I found it just as "lovable" as its quirky next door neighbor.  

Mike
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 12:21:48 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

George Pazin

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2006, 12:25:22 PM »
Some old threads you might enjoy:

Garden City vs. Muirfield

Garden City GC: perfect off the tee

There was a burst of threads on GCGC 4-6 years ago that are really great, with photos (that probably aren't up anymore), but I can't seem to find them.

Ran's profile is excellent, of course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joel_Stewart

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2006, 01:00:15 PM »
Whats better, Augusta or Pine Valley, Pebble or Cypress Point?  Its all personal preference.  I have no idea what Brandel Chamblee knows or likes and can't ever recall him making any type of knowledagble comment about golf course architecture.

As for Garden City and Shinnecock, both of which I have played thats a very different comparison.  Shinny is long and hard and GCGC is very intricate, not over powering.

PThomas

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2006, 01:37:19 PM »
I have only played Garden City and the first 2 holes at Shinnecock. It would not surprise me that anyone gushed over Garden City, it is amazing.

Glenn:  why only 2 at Shinny?  they kick you off after you snuck on or what??? ;)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Glenn Spencer

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2006, 02:56:29 PM »
I have only played Garden City and the first 2 holes at Shinnecock. It would not surprise me that anyone gushed over Garden City, it is amazing.

Glenn:  why only 2 at Shinny?  they kick you off after you snuck on or what??? ;)

I didn't think the first two were all that great, so I just headed in.  ;D  No, rain and lots of it, haven't been back. I know a guy that would take me out there, but I haven't been to Long Island in about 3 years.

Gib_Papazian

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2006, 04:13:41 PM »
I've not seen Sebonac but it makes sense for Chamblee to focus on GCGC. Everyone gushes about Shinnecock to the point where it has elevated to mythical status. That little corner of Southhampton is the Muirfield of America, but everybody gets it, okay? - there have been so many bouquets thrown at Shinnecock that it all sounds like repetitious hyperbole at this point.

Joel hit it exactly on the screws: GCGC is "intricate." I consider it almost the ultimate "home club" - that comfortable, intimate place you can escape to on a Saturday morning.

Shinnecock seems enormous - expansive and sprawling, providing a sensation of a long and sometimes arduous journey. The sex appeal is there - a component missing at - for instance - Oakmont.

But when you are done with it - or "it" is done with you, even a great round leaves you exhausted. It is not a particularly difficult walk, but my legs always ache.

Funny, but next door, the walk up the 18th fairway always leaves me energized - and tearfully grateful just to be alive beneath the windmill.

GCGC is a different matter altogether. It occupies far more real estate than one would think, but you never feel far from the comfort of the clubhouse.

The humps, bumps and bunkers seems scaled down a bit; the hazards taunt, but in a decidedly good-natured way. The first hole strikes a perfect opening note; brains and a decent golf swing is all that is necessary to succeed.

Beefy bombers, who can let out the shaft at Shinnecock, are kept buckled and tied in a straitjacket there.

The par-3 18th appears from the tee a 4-iron into the clubhouse patio . . . .

I find it gratifying that in the last ten years, the Garden City's of the world are coming to the forefront - instead of remaining in the shadows, ignored in favor of places like Baltusrol.

So, Brandel Chamblee is definitiely onto something here. If Golf Channel can accomplish one thing, it will be to identify hidden classics like GCGC - which, to me, reflect the true essence of American golf.

 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 04:14:26 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2006, 04:18:18 PM »
I played with a delightful gentleman at Ganton last week who went on about what a great members course and club Garden City is. He held it in the highest esteem of any american course he had seen.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 12:15:58 AM »
I think the ultimate test for any golf course is as follows.

After walking off the 18th green, do you want to return ASAP to the 1st tee ?

I think GCGC satisfies that test.

I believe Shinnecock does as well, but, it's more demanding if played from the back tees.

As to Sebonack, I'll know shortly.

Doug Siebert

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 12:37:23 AM »
Every golfer knows about Shinnecock and its reputation.  And Sebonack has received a lot of publicity.  GCGC is sort of a hidden gem by comparison, most golfers (especially outside the NE) haven't heard of it so it is easy to be pleasantly surprised if it compares well with some more well known courses.

I'd heard of a lot of courses out east over the years, but I'd never heard of GCGC until I joined GCA.  If I'd gone on a trip out there five years ago and was going to be lucky enough to play Shinnecock and this other course called Garden City Golf Club, I'd be all excited about Shinnecock and figure GCGC would be my warmup for the big day.  So I'd probably have come back and told my friends about how cool GCGC was, because everyone would assume Shinnecock was.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Wayne Freeman

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 01:43:14 AM »
Hoping to get to Sebonac next year, but for me it's Shinnecock hands down. Yes, Garden City is very cool and a terrific course, but everything about Shinnecock is magic-  driving into the course and your first glimpse at the storied clubhouse,  the dramatic first tee shot, the awesome layout, and the drama of the finishing holes on each nine-  you just can't beat it.  

JESII

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2006, 11:33:49 AM »
Billy,

"Dud 7th"???

You seem to have let Wayne (or worse yet, the US Open situation) get into your head about the old 7th tee. The difference of angle is so small as to be negligible. If the green end remains the same you are now asking players to come across the hazards more which balances off the easier slope consideration. Now, if you do use the old tee, you have two tees a few yards from one another where now there is no cluster effect at all.

wsmorrison

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2006, 11:51:34 AM »
I see we're going to have a lively debate on Thursday, Jim.  I think the 7th is a great hole, today's greenspeeds or not.  Jim, the 7 paces or so to the left where the Flynn tee was allowed to go to seed makes a huge difference and is not negligible.  Yes, it brings the hazards a bit more into the line of play but you can hit a draw from there and hold the green--not under the conditions that were present on Open Sunday, but it really makes a tremendous difference.  I didn't believe it at first but next time you're there, put a tee ball down on the Flynn tee and try several different shots.  I did and was amazed (that I pulled them off and that there is a difference).  I think they should bring back the Flynn tee and, if possible, retain the Macdonald tee.  If one needs to be eliminated, it should be the Macdonald tee.  When Flynn redesigned the green, he intended it to be played from his new tee.  I have no idea why the Flynn tee was abandoned and the original retained (or perhaps returned).

JESII

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2006, 12:05:27 PM »
So we agree Billy Boy is still off his rocker when he calls #7 a dud, right?

Do you think in total the hole is more playable (meaning par-able) from the Flynn tee of MacDonald tee?

How close to #4 tee is the Flynn tee?

wsmorrison

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2006, 12:38:13 PM »
I agree that BillV is a knucklehead, about the 7th at Shinnecock and for a host of other reasons  ;)  

Jim, the green was redesigned with the Flynn tee in mind and it makes a real difference in play and par ability.  Next time you're there you will see for yourself.  Tom Paul predicted that the 7 yards or so would make a big difference and he was right, this time anyway.

The Flynn tee on 7 is pretty far from the 4th tee, it is still on the far side of the path that is between the two holes like the Macdonald tee.  The few trees that used to obscure the tee are now removed but there is still a grove of trees between the Flynn tee and the 4th tee.

Mike Hendren

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 01:17:46 PM »
But a knucklehead that pays attention.

#7 sticks out like a sore thumb as it is the only recognizable remaining Raynor feature and all Flynn did was mis-utilize it. :)

Much of SHCC sits fairly well on the land, but the 7th green mound looks dropped in from outer space, now more than ever,  A travesty of the name redan.

Westhampton and Chicago, The Rock and Forsgate "redans" all sit better on the land and are mostly better holes with more interest.  #7 just doeesn't fit very well.

Whew!  I feel like it's finally safe to come out of the closet, whether Bill's kidding or not.  I mentioned above that Shinnecock could be the greatest course in the country, but "sticks out like a sore thumb" is the exact comment I've made regarding the 7th.  Perhaps its purpose it to serve as a nod to the course's architectural heritage, not unlike the MacKenzie bunker in the 10th fairway at Augusta National.  

How does one hit that green?  

Mike

« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 01:18:30 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JESII

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2006, 02:30:46 PM »

How does one hit that green?  

Mike


True story, my grandfather had three holes in one in his life. The first two on the 14th at North Hills (220 or so), and the final on #7 at Shinnecock. The kicker: all three with his driver. His time at North Hills in the 60's and 70's he was a single digit handicap, his ACE at SH was 5 or 6 years ago at about 75. Pretty cool.


My opinion is that #7 at Shinnecock is a magnificent par three that is usually extremely difficult. Whether you think the setting is natural I couldn't care less. Stand on that tee (or the Flynn tee, I don't care) with a bit of wind blowing and tell me it's not one of the great par threes of the world. Sitting here and saying it looks like it's from outer space and sticks out like a sore thumb does not accomplish much.

Tell me, what about the land at those courses is "better" Billy?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 02:31:38 PM by JES II »

wsmorrison

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2006, 03:27:21 PM »
Here's a Google aerial showing the 7th hole.  Flynn's tee can be seen directly to the right (left as the hole is played) of the Macdonald tee as a greyish green area just to the left of the trees and path:



I don't see how Shinnecock Hill's 7th sticks out like a sore thumb unless you are looking for a natural looking Redan.  Flynn redesigned the hole building an all new greensite on the same site as the former Redan by Macdonald.  The bunkering is completely different and much of the fill was probably used to raise the green substantially over the natural grade.  I think the original hole was on grade as it had a natural right to left fall.  

Flynn wasn't trying to replicate anything but build a hole in his own way.  Interestingly it is more reminiscent of the 7th at Philadelphia Country or the 3rd at Huntingdon Valley than it is anything like a Macdonald or Raynor template hole or the original at N. Berwick.   From photos, I've never been, it seems to have a bit more in common with the Redan at Somerset Hills than anything by Mac/Raynor/Banks.  He had his own version and they all have steep fronts.  It was not a ground or aerial option but almost exclusively an aerial approach demand.  Quite a bit different in concept and hard to compare to the typical Redans.  Flynn didn't call it a Redan and in my mind it was a transition hole to a more modern American version of golf.  I love it and think it one of the great par 3s in golf.  Along with 2,11 and 17 it is one of the strongest sets of par 3s I know.  A strong set of par 3s on a course is a hallmark of Flynn designs.

If you look at Flynn courses as having shot testing demands, I don't think it is really an outlier.

As for me liking everything Flynn, that is not so.  I don't like the routing nor hole designs of 8 and 9 at Philadelphia Country Club.  The 8th green was redesigned inhouse in the 1960s but overall the holes don't work well.  There's more I don't like and I'd be happy to discuss.  There is so much that is extraordinary that I tend to concentrate on that stuff.

wsmorrison

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2006, 03:31:36 PM »
Jim,

I agree with you regarding SHGC in general and the 7th in particlular.  SHGC is my favorite course in the world and the 7th is a great hole.  Maybe Bill V should play from the correct tee and then decide.  He and most others (though not myself, Scott Anderson, Tom Paul and Craig Disher) have been playing it wrong all these years.  

I think BillyV needs to go to summer school or else be left a grade behind.  Shot testing Bill, shot testing.  Think of some Flynn holes with that in mind and you might better understand what he was trying to do.  It took you how many years to figure out the green is not Macdonald?  I expect in a few more years you'll figure out what Flynn the Magnificent  ;) was trying to accomplish with his design.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 03:33:18 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Mike Hendren

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2006, 03:42:21 PM »
Quote from: BV #2 Unidimensional is not good.  #7 SH is unidimensional
[quote

Bill,

I can't even figure out THE dimension.  Again I'll ask, how is this hole best approached?  

Mike
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 03:43:06 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JESII

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2006, 03:42:58 PM »
It's funny, you have now taken a page out of Mucci's book by telling me that as a good player I cannot understand the plight of the lesser player. But, you two, the open minded observationists can understand everything as they effect each and every caliber player. Probably even the left handed  ;) . Bullshit. I am not saying I can see and understand everything (or even a small percentage) about golf course architecture, but you two so easily suggest that when we disagree about something it's my playing ability clouding my vision. What's your handicap Bill? How long have you been in that relative neighborhood? Longer than I've lived I'd bet. You are the ones that view these things through clouded goggles, just look at your closing statements.

"Final final:

#7 at SH will always be a negative outlier to me. It's very penal and is an outlier on an otherwise highly strategic course.

We'll leave it at that, or at least I will.  
"


This is a discussion group yet you have no interest in actually discussing something about which you are more than happy to make disparaging remarks. Pretty weak. I'm not concerned about someone not liking a particular hole. But when you tell me "Let's just say that each course fits its land well - which is good enough." I have to ask, how do their Redan's "fit the land" better than #7 at Shinnecock.

By the way, about the hole being one dimensional, did you happen to read what I wrote about my grandfather? Do you actually think he flew it onto the green there with his driver?


Let's analyze your last half sentence, as it compares to the rest of your post.
it is probably the least par 3 at SH to me. [/color]
That comment in concert with:

#2 Unidimensional is not good.  #7 SH is unidimensional
[/color]
Makes me wonder what you are talking about. By unidimensional are you suggesting there is only one way to play the hole, ie; fly it onto the green? There is more room to bounce it up onto that green than the each of the other three one shotters, so that would then contradict your statement about it being the least par 3 there. By unidimensional do you mean only one shot shape can work? Please tell me, which one because different shapes and trajectories look like a great idea under different conditions.


« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 03:43:39 PM by JES II »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2006, 08:06:48 PM »

It's funny, you have now taken a page out of Mucci's book by telling me that as a good player I cannot understand the plight of the lesser player. [size=4x]

Where and when did I ever make that statement ?

If you're going to quote me, or attribute statements to me, do it accurately, not incorrectly, as you've done above.

A retraction is in order.
[/color][/size]





Garland Bayley

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2006, 08:40:45 PM »
[size=4x]

A retraction is in order.
[/color][/size]

Best laugh all day!
 ;D ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re:garden city over shinnecock and sebonack
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2006, 10:19:20 AM »

It's funny, you have now taken a page out of Mucci's book by telling me that as a good player I cannot understand the plight of the lesser player. [size=4x]

Where and when did I ever make that statement ?

If you're going to quote me, or attribute statements to me, do it accurately, not incorrectly, as you've done above.

A retraction is in order.
[/color][/size]






Patrick,

If your font size had been one or two degrees larger I would have been positive you were joking. As it is I will go on the assumption that you are serious and cite one of the several times you have used the "you're too good a player to understand" argument. Honestly Pat, for you and Bill to use that argument with me is so ridiculous, How long have you been a single digit handicapper? 60 years?

Anyway, below is an excerpt from one of our debates about Pine Valley. Enjoy!


JESII: I have no sympathy for you if you mis-hit a tee shot 20 yards from the ideal target (which is still left-center on a 50 yard wide fairway) on a 220 yard tee shot and cannot hit a direct unencumbered approach to the pin.

Mucci: Your position is so one dimensional, typical of those who can only view architecture in the context of the best players.

Why would you expect a 10, 15, 20 or higher handicap to execute such a precise tee and approach shot ?

Especially an approach shot from an awkward sidehill, uphill lie to an elevated green, surrounded by bunkers and closeted by invasive trees.

Try thinking in terms of ALL golfers, not just the better player.  It will expand your horizons and broaden understanding of architectural intent.

Right now, you just don't get it.



Patrick, I quoted this from our conversation in the thread titled "biased pics of Pine Valley #17". This particular thread ended on May 1 of this year if you'd like to go back and confirm.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 10:38:32 AM by JES II »