How much does price influence your playing decisions?

[Matt_Ward]

I had an interesting discussion with the group of guys I generally play golf with here in North Jersey.

The issue of price became a point for some in determining where they would play the following week. No doubt the $$ wherewithal is a dicey subject for some as some guys in my group are a bit cheap while others operate under some self-defined motive that any course above "X" is not worth the time to play because of the cost.

Just wondered -- at what price point do you rule out playing a particular course or do you make a clear exception dependong upon what it offers?

Please keep in mind I'm not talking about the fantasy trip to Sand Hills / Pebble Beach, et al, or some such other top notch place -- no doubt just about everyone would plunck down the bucks and do that. I'm talking about in your own "neck of the woods" and what factor $$ plays in your playing decisions.

[Mike Benham]

Mine is the X factor ... when my two college sons and I play, and I am picking up the tab, we will play the affordable muni's (Pacific Grove is a favorite as are the specials at Monarch Bay or Metropolitan).

But being in the Bay Area, not many of my golfing decisions are based on GCA ...

[Brad Swanson]

Matt,
   Back in my playing days in Denver, anyplace that cost more than $40 was not on my regular rotation (which in Denver still allowed plenty of what I considered fine quality golf courses).  I would certainly play places that were more costly, but usually only once a year maybe if they were worth the extra $$.  Now I think anyplace is too expensive (which may be while my clubs have a couple inches of dust on them from their year plus stay in long term storage in the garage).  I've decided the game is too expensive for the average joe like myself, not only in monetary terms, but in the precious currency of time.

Cheers,
Brad      

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

As a follow-up -- does price impact the estimation you have of places -- for example -- do you give a bit more wiggle room to places that charge less because you expect less -- think of going for fast food and knowing what you get when you go to a Wendy's or McD's, etc, etc.

Fortunately for you the greater Denver area has some of the deepest array of quality public courses in the USA from a price and architectural side -- certainly far cheaper than what we pay here for daily fees in the Garden State.

[George Pazin]

I've decided the game is too expensive for the average joe like myself, not only in monetary terms, but in the precious currency of time.

I agree with a lot of this statement (except for the part about you being an average joe).

For me, it's mostly about value. If I think a special course is worth the extra $$$, I'll spend it, along with the time. But I won't spend the money for no good reason, which is all too frequent with many high priced courses.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Let's be clear there are guys with incredibly short arms and deep pockets and are simply CHEAP with capital letters.

You also have to define "value" because I know a number of guys in my group who believe value doesn't go beyond $50 to play.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Matt

When I get the chance to play a course for the first time then cost is not too much of a factor compared to the expectation of something special.  But it certainly has a bearing on the simple question I always ask myself, "How soon do I want to go back?".  

In the real world it's the repeat visits that determine the financial success or not.

[Glenn Spencer]

1. Club that I want to play that has nice rep-$70

2. Club that I have played and liked-$80

3. CCFAD- don't like to play them unless roped in for Bachelor party or trip- doesn't matter because I never feel satisfied

4. Get out and drink and gamble golf-$50

5. Any Ross or Tillie or other great. I would be fine with $125.


My golf partner is a member at NCR- it is $110, so I play a few times a year, if it was $70, I would play there most times.

Longaberger- thought $89 was OK, based on what you hear. It wasn't. $135 would have really annoyed me, but I still would have probably played it once

Pasatiempo- I had to drag 3 guys there, with women complaining the whole way for $122. We had a fabulous time and no one can remember the price now.

If I have to play it, like a Pasatiempo, I really don't care. If I don't have to play it, I usually don't.

[Gary Daughters]

Matt --

My top 2 considerations in selecting a golf course are:

1) Price.. no more than $40
2) How long it takes to get in 18.. no more than 3 1/2 hrs.

[George Pazin]

Of course there are cheap people out there. There are also people that throw money around like it's printed on paper .

"Value" is subjective. I think Rawls, Black Mesa, Quicksilver, Birdsfoot, etc., are all excellent values, and they're all around $50. I think Olde Stonewall is way overpriced at $135 or whatever they're asking these days, and I think Mystic Rock is as well. Most desert courses are way overpriced relative to their value, as well, imho. I don't know if it's simply water/maintenance related, or if they are just charging what the market will bear.

I think The Ocean Course is an example of a higher priced course that is a decent value, but once you get over $200, it's hard for me to call anything in that range a decent value. Probably only a handful of special private courses would be worth that, to me personally.

[D_Malley]

i believe the golfing public looks at public golf courses in two ditinct categories.  there are the once a year golf courses which tend to be in $100+ price range, and then there is the course which they may play 5-10 times per month which fall into the $30-$50 range.  at my club our fees range from $35 - $55 and we get an extreme amount of repeat play.

www.PaxonHollowGolf.com

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt

I have turned down games at expensive places based purely on price.  I think Lytham was the most recent.  Once a course starts getting over £40 area bells start to ring.  There must be something a bit special about it or somebody has to be in town.  To be honest, I don't play many local courses unless I am a guest or it is in a comp.  Of course, there are exceptions, especially if on golf trips.  So to answer your question, money does play a significant role in where I choose to play.

Ciao

Sean

If I have played it maybe, but if I hadn't, I would sell my driver  in the parking lot and just use 3-wood to play Lytham. I am guessing you have played it enough already.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, as you frame the question, among local places to play, and price break-point that seems to be the default limit among my local pals, I'd say about $50 is where the gang will nix the idea of going elsewhere in the area to play, rather than our regular place where most of my friends have a yearly pass.  We only go to such regional places a few times a year, most of the time in sping and fall, when they have price specials under $50.  

For a really great course, as you note above, there are a wide variety of break points.  Some of my friends won't play anything (from Pebble Beach to Sand Hills, etc), for more than about 100-125 and only that on very special occasions -which obviously leaves out places like PBGL.  Here, most serious local golfers have played a place like Whistling Straits or Black Wolf (250-300) once or twice, and some have played at those places on a group corporate sort of junket and that is the only way they would play it is on a freebie.

I think Brad Swanson's post is very instructive in that he is one hell of a player who you would imagine keeping up with the game.  Yet, understandably the golf scene seemingly has disincentivized even a player of his calibre via price and time.  I can't imagine having that much talent to play the game and not having a local venue that has enough incentive in time and cost to get out and play.

Of course everyone's priorities are different, and I give respect to a fellow like Brad who has bigger fish to fry in his career, at this time.  But, I hope that there continues to be places where a fellow like him will be motivated to play and enjoy the skills and knowledge-appreciation of GCA that he has.  

In my opinion, golf can't afford to loose good and knowledgeable players like Brad and others we know here on GCA.  Which leads this discussion perhaps to a different level.  

For instance, we have some like Barney/JakaB that regularly needle those that have passes for raters of various magazines getting free golf and guest invites.  There are some other semi free or highly discounted situations where the holder of a certain card gets some professional courtesy on free or discounted golf fees.  I won't mention those organizations that have a certain free or courtesy sort of arrangement.

But, my point is that there may very well be a good reason to offer certain perks and freebies in certain situations.  That reason being to keep good players and enthusiasts in the game.  Now, that may be a very controversial thought, and maybe I myself don't actually fully believe that.  But, could that be a valid reason to have these circles of freebie or discounted golf fee networks...to incentivize frequent, knowledgeable and good players actively involved in making the golf circuit of good courses, to promote the game?

[Dan_Callahan]

I will try any course once, regardless of price (unless it is obscenely expensive). After that, it all has to do with value.

In the Northeast, I will pay the $75-$100 to play the Ranch, Crumpin Fox, Blackstone National, Red Tail, Belgrade Lakes, Newport National, etc. Because of the high cost, I will probably play each of them only once a year (the Ranch perhaps more often because it is close by). However, they form an annual rotation that I look forward to when we are snowed in through February. Each year, I try to add a few new clubs—this year I'd like to get to Plymouth for a couple of rounds.

I will not pay the equivalent to get on Gillette Ridge, Great River or Fox Hopyard. The greens fees these clubs charge hugely overestimate the quality of the courses.

On the other hand, "lesser" courses such as Shennecossett, the Ledges (in South Hadley), Franconia, etc., offer terrific values and I am happy to play them at any time.

[Brad Swanson]

Matt,
   GCA-crazy people like us usually have heard others opinions on a place (or have at least kept an open ear regarding a new course) before playing it.  I would have to say that word-of-mouth opinion from friends usually has more of an influence on my chosing which over $40 to play more than the amount of the fee itself.  In my Denver playing days, I even splurged at least once a year to play The Ridge at Castle Pines North because I liked the course and loved the setting/scenery (GASP! ).  Living in Denver though, breaking out of the regular rotation of great value courses usually required a visit from someone that wanted to experience some CCFAD eye-candy.  I was very satisfied with a steady diet of Riverdale Dunes, Green Valley Ranch, and Murphy Creek (in that order).

Cheers,
Brad

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

Let me point it this way to you -- if Wild Horse or Lawsonia Links doubled its rate to play (heaven forbid I might add !!!) how many rounds (same, less or more) would you then play there?

My contention is that architecture matters to many here on this site but the almighty dollar still factors into the equation for those who are serious about the places they play.

[rjsimper]

I'd say that $80 is my weekend limit - if it's over 80 bucks, there has to be a true reason for me to be playing other than I just wanted to go out and get 18 in.

That reason could be a group of friends all going somewhere and have invited me along, or I'm out of town and looking to play a notable local course wherever I am (Bodega Harbour is an example of that), or if I'm really going for broke on a trip (Bandon)

Otherwise, 80 bucks is about the limit for me aside from once in a lifetime treat-type courses.  I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't drop the 450 to play Pebble if I had a good couple of playing partners to go with.  

I suppose the answer for me, then, is that for a daily-play round, 80 bucks is about the top (tough to justify anything else with Rustic Canyon at 55).





Matt Ward - Re: the wiggle room question, I think that's 100% the case.  Let's look at a good sample of the "golfers en masse" and how they consider this - Take Orange County golf for example.  Strawberry Farms charges somewhere around $125 for a weekend round.  On the other hand, nearby are El Toro and the Seal Beach Navy Destroyer course.

On golfcourse.com (Granted, not the be all and end all of public opinion, but still probably closer to it than this site when talking about Joe Weekender) the ratings for El Toro are currently 3.2 and the Destroyer is 4.7 (!?!?) whereas Strawberry Farms is 3.0.

Strawberry Farms is a nice golf course.  I enjoy playing it, but people seem to consistenly hold it to a much higher standard (and perhaps rightfully so) when they're paying $125 bucks.

The Destroyer, at under 30 bucks, is a perfectly fine golf course but really nothing special in my opinion.  Of course, for 30 bucks (around the going municipal rate in the LA area) it's better than most in its price class.  

El Toro, in my opinion a better course than the Destroyer but very similar in conditions and feel, is around 50-60 bucks, yet gets rated SIGNIFICANTLY lower (but still higher than SF, interestingly)

Expectation versus price, for probably all courses between 20 and 150 bucks in this area, is one of the most dominant factors shaping public opinion of a golf course.  Locals (even non GCA types, rave about Rustic Canyon and much of it is the 40-55 dollar green fees.  

Were RC and SF reversed and Strawberry was 40-55 and Rustic was 95-125, we might still praise RC here, but I promise that the local golfers will flock to Strawberry Farms screaming all the way about how it's the savior of public golf.

Probably got off track there, but oh well.

I'll pay the price for good golf if I need to, just not ALL the time (especially since I can pay 55 for good golf down here, which is like stealing in the LA market)

[Kirk Gill]

As a father of four kids under 10, both money and time are tight. Playing at all has become a treat lately, and price is a major consideration, especially for repeat play. As Mr. Muldoon stated, the first time the cost is probably less of a factor. And the price definitely plays into how critical I am about a course. Interlocken is to me a crap deal at over $100, but for $40 I might feel differently. Okay, maybe for $25. Played Lone Tree recently using a coupon (payed only for my cart). The relentless McMansions on the back nine looming over every single shot bugged me (a little) less on the cheap.

What amazes me is that there are those people who won't play a cheaper course, especially when traveling. Their rationale is that the pricier course MUST be the better course. Not always true.

[A.G._Crockett]

Matt,
I think this is a question with a constantly sliding scale as the answer for most of us.

How many options do I have? Is it THIS course, or no golf at all?

Will it pad my GCA resume?

Will I get another shot at playing here, or is it now or never?

Just me, or part of a trip with buddies?

Have I been here before and
   a. can't wait to play it again
         or
   b. don't care to see it again

With all of those qualifiers, my general answer is that price influences my playing decisions a lot, and increasingly so.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, that is a wee bit hard for me to say because of extenuating circumstances of familiarity and many times having played them.  

I have played Lawsonia a high number of times.  I play there usually at the twilight rate (~$35).  I actually haven't played it yet this year.  I would go particularly to meet friends and play it yet one more time after having played it many times for maybe 50-100.  But, over that, I've played it enough that I wouldn't pay more now.  I would pay more if I only played it once or twice, or never on a recommendation of someone I have confidence knows what they are talking about.

Wild Horse, hell I drive there for 14 hours and that is enough commitment.  I'd be pissed if I had to pay over $50 because of the commitment it already takes to get there.  Had I never been there, yet heard so much about it, I'd pay comparable to all the big time venues (~200-250)  But, then that would have to be it, the one and only time I'd play it.  

The question is for the operators of these places and what they value.  Do they want repeat players, or one and done, been there done that mentality?  It seems to me a Wild Horse sort of place would want repeat play and folks like me spending on F&B and merchandise coming back repeatedly.  Yet, that doesn't seem to be the formula for the really upscale CCFADs.  I'll leave it for the operators to make their choice on how to price themselves and then I'll make mine.  No more Whistling Straits for me at ~300, maybe I'd consider it at about 100, but that would also be a rare occasion that Kohler isn't likely to offer.  

I'd pay the freight for a Pac Dunes or the guest fees for a BallyNeal, Sand Hills, etc.  Yet, based just on opinions I value, I would not pay for a Shadow Creek, Pebble Beach.  We all have our differing triggers, I guess...

[Tim Pitner]

But, my point is that there may very well be a good reason to offer certain perks and freebies in certain situations.  That reason being to keep good players and enthusiasts in the game.  Now, that may be a very controversial thought, and maybe I myself don't actually fully believe that.  But, could that be a valid reason to have these circles of freebie or discounted golf fee networks...to incentivize frequent, knowledgeable and good players actively involved in making the golf circuit of good courses, to promote the game?

Some of us non-raters play golf (and pay for it) because we love the game.  BTW, I'm not making any comment regarding Brad Swanson.  I don't begrudge anyone taking advantage of being a rater--hell, I'd love to be one.  But, let's not construct a self-congratulatory argument in favor of raters.  

Regarding price, I think I'm like most.  Living in Denver, I have quite a few options to choose from in the below $50 range and that's normally where I play.  A couple of times a year, I'll play a Bear Dance or one of the mountain courses (e.g., Raven at Three Peaks, the Keystone courses), especially if it involves entertaining out-of-towners.  The courses that really bother me are the ones that charge above-market rates and don't offer anything out of the ordinary--Highlands Ranch Golf Club and Red Hawk Ridge come to mind.  

As far as travel golf goes, I have no problem paying the price for the courses at Bandon--the experience more than justifies it.  I haven't been to Kohler, but I don't like the idea of paying higher than Bandon rates for what appear to me to be lesser courses overall.  When I'm traveling with my family and playing an odd round of golf, I try to play something interesting and close.  Price is a secondary factor, but definitely a factor.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt

I have turned down games at expensive places based purely on price.  I think Lytham was the most recent.  Once a course starts getting over £40 area bells start to ring.  There must be something a bit special about it or somebody has to be in town.  To be honest, I don't play many local courses unless I am a guest or it is in a comp.  Of course, there are exceptions, especially if on golf trips.  So to answer your question, money does play a significant role in where I choose to play.

Ciao

Sean

If I have played it maybe, but if I hadn't, I would sell my driver  in the parking lot and just use 3-wood to play Lytham. I am guessing you have played it enough already.

Glenn

I am not sure if already having played the course a few times makes me dubious of paying $200 for a game at Lytham (and many other places for that matter).  I am willing to pay that amount and more for other courses.  I think it is more a function of age in that I don't like taking expensive risks.  You know, the once bitten twice shy routine.  Additionally, the course didn't move me.  A good course for sure, but not one that makes the heart sing.  For 200 bucks I want a lot of singing.

Ciao

Sean

I had no idea it was $200. I can see just about any course being one and done if it didn't make your heart sing.

[Kirk Gill]

I had no idea it was $200. I can see just about any course being one and done if it didn't make your heart sing.

But what if it makes everything groovy? I think I'd go $200 for that.

[Glenn Spencer]

Maybe $250 if it made me want to shout.

[ForkaB]

These days I won't pay anything to play a golf course, per se.  For golf with people I want to play with, price is generally no object, but there are not many people I know who are worth much more than $150/round.