9 Hole Matches - Wrong for M/G?

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Can't stand 9 hole matches in Member-Guests.

I would rather go to a weekend revival of reformed non-drinkers, or a town council meeting than play in another two day member-guest with 9 hole matches.

What is the most fun format for member guests???

JWK

[Jason Blasberg]

Have to disagree with you on this one, I think it's 9 hole matches.  You get no free screw ups in that format.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Jason -

Your premise is right, but it's like a 4 year old's soccer game.  No winners, just a big social gathering.  18 holes or more determine the better players, and you can fire at flags knowing that one of two holes can be made up later.

I don't mind 9 holes for leagues or scholastic matches, but a tournament over 3 days will give you plenty of time to meet the fellow competitors...

JWK

[Craig Sweet]

I'm playing in one next month....Thursday practice round and a "bow wow"....for the bow wow you go out in fousomes and play a best ball net...each player kicks $50 into a pot....$200 per foursome....pays out low front nine...low back nine and low 18....

Friday and Saturday you play stroke play...Saturday is alternate shot I believe...

[Bill_McBride]

I also like the five 9 hole matches format, followed by a shoot out of flight winners.  My partner and I stumbled to victory in our flight last year and joined seven other groups in a shootout.  That was really fun!

The nine hole matches give you an opportunity to play with quite a few other players under individual match play competition conditions, head to head.  I really dislike medal play in member guests, too much pressure.  

I've never played alternate shot ina member guest, that would be lots of fun (if match play) but you could potentially see the end of a life long friendship!

[Nick Church]

I prefer 9-hole matches.  It keeps everyone "in" --- even if it's just the attitude of "let's win our last match".  Also, you get to meet more players in the field.  Plus, the head-to-head feel of match play is just a lot more fun.

And, if you have a winner-take-all shootout between all the flight winners --- you can't beat that (other than it takes 2 hours to play 4 elimination holes).

[Bill_McBride]

What the hell are you talking about, Arble?    Be specific!

[Craig Sweet]

"What is foursomes best ball net?"

Sean...if I recall from the last time I played this invitational, the bow-wow was best ball amongst the foursome using your net score on the hole...for example...if I got a stroke on a hole, and had a net birdie, that birdie might be our best ball....

The alternate shot was you and your patner hit your drive on each hole, and then chose which one to play on in, alternating shots....

[Craig Sweet]

By the way...setting something up like the bow-wow for the practice round is great fun!  Our foursome took low front 9 and low 18...it worked out to something like $400 per person for the $50 in the pot.

[Bill_McBride]

"Best ball of the foursome" is Craig's first game. Each group's net best ball against the field.  It's not played frequently, although my Saturday group's main game (a "dogfight") when there are three or four foursomes is best ball and second best ball of each foursome against each of the other groups, $2 per hole.  I don't much for that format, would much prefer a fourball in each group.  As you know, there is a regrettably small amount of foursomes played here.

[Craig Sweet]

Sorry...I was going to call it a 4 ball, but figured that might confuse some...

 

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, when I used the term "foursome" there, it was in reference to the number of players in a group, all playing as a team with one best ball of the group, NOT "foursome" as in two man alternate shot team play.

Sorry for the confusion.  And confusing it is!

[peter_p]

I'd prefer 9 hole match play to watching sandbaggers run away every year.

[Jason Topp]

I've played them in several formats and like the 9 hole matches the best.  You meet a bunch of different people, you get to compete regardless of how you have played in the past and the outcome is a bit more random.  

When you play the foursome/ best ball/ both ball format, that last round can get tedious when you have no shot at winning.  With the 9 hole match format, a large percentage of the field has a shot at winning their flight on the last day, and everyone has a chance to win that last match.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can't stand 9 hole matches in Member-Guests.

I would rather go to a weekend revival of reformed non-drinkers, or a town council meeting than play in another two day member-guest with 9 hole matches.

What is the most fun format for member guests???

NINE HOLE MATCHES

They're great because you get to meet and play with more fellow competitors, while at the same time you are able to enjoy the competitive nature of the event, sometimes controlling your own destiny and other times having to hope that another team defeats a contender for the title.

I love em.

But, that's just my opinion, but, TEPaul could be wrong.[/color]

[Tom Roewer]

As a Club Professional I always considered 9 hole matches a pain in the a** especially when you have a course that does not return to the clubhouse after #9.  Matches don't preclude sandbaggers winning either.  I think we always had a great one because of: format, prizes, tee gifts, food, entertainment, and staff service.  All of these must support each other.  Our format was two days of better ball stroke play.  We had one overall gross winner & runners-up and one overall net winner and runners-up as well as 4 flight winners and runners-up.  Possibly the best part of the format was our shoot-out after round one.  We took the 2 low net teams from each flight as well as 2 blind draws and played a 5 hole shoot-out ( 7 teams play after #1, 5 teams after#2, 3 teams after #3, and 2 teams after #4.  It was a true cluster **** with twenty players and 10 balls in play on the first, which usually took about an hour and fifteen minutes, but it was so much fun with 4 or 5 bev carts and about 100 people spectating.  

[Adam_Messix]

Pat's right, the best way to meet more guys in the field in a Member-Guest is through the nine hole matches.  

Tom, having run fourteen of these nine hole match tournaments, they are a pain in the neck from the pro shop's point of view, particularly when you are hand writing all of the scorecards for all of the matches (in an 84 team field.)  There is a way to handle the nine hole matches with the ninth hole away from the clubhouse and that's with starting times and having an assistant pro by the 10th tee to collect scorecards, introduce new matches to one another and start the matches off.  There will be a bit of a delay at the 10th tee, but everyone knows that a Member-Guest is a full day and they don't mind being out there a bit longer than normal.  

Where I disagree is with the "playoff" of flight winners.  Most clubs do a shootout of the flight winners where teams with the high score are eliminated.  The higher handicaps always seem to have an edge in this format due to strokes.  The best playoff that I have seen is where all of the flight winners play in a four hole four-ball stroke play aggregate format with there being a par five, two fours, and a three.  It takes a little longer to finish, but it seems to bring out the team that is playing the best.  From the winners of the playoff I can tell you that a pair of 18s have won it and a team of twos have won so it does give everyone a chance.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

I've run a two day member-guest with this format for years.

The problem we've faced is the weather on the last day and the dilema of running out of sunlight.

The longer the playoff, the less likely you are to get it in, especially if you've had a weather delay.

Part of the solution, if not THE key factor in presenting an enjoyable tournament, is limiting the number of teams in the event.  48 teams seems ideal.  Once you go to 54 teams you unbalance the nines which causes additional delays.  At 60 teams you begin to get very unwieldy.

Another help is eliminating a number of teams on each of the three playoff holes, which reduces the time needed for the playoff.

Not having returning nines shouldn't be an impediment.
GCGC does it quite well.  The key is not to have unbalanced nines.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Thanks to all!

After careful consideration, I believe that I have come up with the perfect format for Member-Guest Tournaments in the 21st Century:

Drumroll please...

Next year, our member-guest should have a one hole putt-off for the entire championship from 2" to maximize the time that we can socialize with our fellow members and their guests.

Everyone gets a trophy with "XYXY Club Member-Guest Winner" on it.  

No one loses - Everybody's Happy!!!  

Maximum drinking and eating.  

Simple hat pool solution.  

No potentially ugly rules disputes.

Less work for the staff.

Wives are estatic because we are not playing too much golf and having too good of a time.




I'm only kidding...

The format that I played in this weekend had a maximum of 5 points won per team per match at:

Win Hole - 1 point
Halve Hole - 1/2 point
Lose Hole - 0 points.

This scoring format was intended to keep everyone alive until the last match where you could win an unlimited amount of points.  

For flighting, there was no qualifying.  The maximum spread of handicap was 10 shots between the individual member/guest team.  Flights were seeded by 100% of low handicap + 50% of the  higher handicap.

This format did not work too well in the Champ. Flight where the +3 HCP guest and his 19 HCP partner were crucified at every turn.  Every team got 5 points against them, and one lucky team was going to be able to "Unlimited" against them in the final 9 for their fifth 9 hole match before a deluge caused the event to be concluded.  The +3 hcp player had to birdie the holes where he was giving strokes, and the 19 (Adjusted down to a 7) had to better his handicap by 6 strokes per nine (45 to a magical 39 each and every 9 ain't happening).

I might have liked the 9 hole format better if there was no social welfare of 5 point maximum, and we went to:

Win a hole = 1 Point/Lose a hole = -1 Point.

At the end of the day, I can't see spending all of that time, money and effort where the field is kept alive to keep them interested.

What happened to all of the people who said 36 holes eliminates the quirkiness/"Lightning in a bottle of 18 hole" match play?  9 holes is more random than 18, and the short term nature of the  9 hole format is a lot more superficial in regards to the socialization process.  Quality over Quantity?

JWK

Part of the fun with 18 hole matches over 2-3 days is if you lose, the pressure's off.  You can relax, play some golf on days 2 and or 3, and joke with the other team while making side bets.  The edge is gone, but the competition's there.  If you win, all the better.  Losing on the 2nd or 3rd day is okay because you were in it.

I appreciate everyone's input...

 

[Bill_McBride]

Jim, we play five 20-point matches against the other teams in our six-team flights.  The teams are ranked 1-48 by total handicap.

Each match is worth 20 points.  2 points for winning a hole, one for tying the hole, 0 for losing, plus 2 points for winning the match, 1 for tying, etc.

So there are five 9-hole matches over two days, with tee times on first day (a long one), and shotgun on day 2 to make sure all finish at the same time and early enough for the shootout.  As someone mentioned above, it is really fun to have a bunch of spectators out there with a couple of beverage carts!

I've also played the 36 holes of full handicap best ball in some very good events.  Overall, I think the 9-hole matches are more fun because you have a chance to rally even after a bad start.