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Lester_Bernham

GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« on: November 03, 2002, 03:57:30 AM »
From Todays Scotland on Sunday

Lists can appear as wayward as a sclaff

John Huggan

Golf has long been in love with lists. Every magazine worth its salt has come up with top-tens of this, that and the other over the years. Those with the most high profile, however, are the rankings of golf courses.

In the US, Golf Digest (the magazine for which I also write) was first to recognise the interest - and potential advertising dollars - in course rankings and came up with ‘America’s 100 Greatest’. It has added the likes of ‘Best New Courses’, ‘Best Teachers’ and ‘Best Cities for Golf’. As it should, the magazine takes it all very seriously. Indeed, just about the only list not covered so far is one of those courses that have not yet featured on a list.

All of which provoked Digest’s main competitor, Golf Magazine, to retaliate with the ‘World’s Best 100 Courses’. And the British mags soon caught on. Golf World, in fact, has just produced its latest version of what it grandly titles ‘The Top 100 Courses in the British Isles’. And what a dog’s breakfast they have made of it.

Unlike Golf Digest, whose judging panel includes hundreds of amateur golfers who are category-one handicappers or have been that low at some time in their lives, Golf World’s small collection of golfing ‘experts’ contains some right choppers.

This is an important point. While it may sound dreadfully snobby to say so, like it or not, good players look at golf courses in completely different ways compared to the bad golfers. That fact has been brought home to me whenever I (handicap one) have tried to explain the strategy of a particular hole to my long-time winter four-ball partner, Jim (handicap 13). The looks that I get in return for my pearls of wisdom are invariably of the blank variety.

There are exceptions to this unwritten rule, of course. But the fact is that most high-handicappers don’t know the difference between a good hole and a bad hole, something that should summarily disqualify them from sitting on a panel telling the world what courses represent good and bad golf.

Golf World’s 86-strong gathering of ‘experts’ - supplemented by the magazine’s editorial staff - contain plenty of good players, many of them professionals, but also a fair few for whom breaking 80 is but a pipe dream.

For example, European Tour executive director Ken Schofield and Sandy Jones, chief executive director of the PGA, have each been asked for their knowledge and input. Now, while both presumably do a fine job on the business end of the golf industry, I would have to question whether either really knows good from bad when it comes to golf courses.

Schofield, for one, doesn’t spend that much of his working life looking at examples of great course architecture. Of the 100 courses on Golf World’s list, only eight appeared on the European Tour during 2002. And Jones? His office is at the boring Belfry, a course that - quite rightly - does not make the list.

Enough said.

There’s more. Numbered among the panellists are two golf journalists. One I have never seen play; the other is someone for whom the next air shot will be a long way from his first. Of the rest - a conglomeration of area secretaries, professionals and assorted ‘celebrities’ - too many are compromised by their jobs and their localities.

The bottom line? This is a list with zero credibility.

So it is perhaps no surprise that - even allowing for the inevitably subjective nature of such a ranking - that Golf World’s top-100 contains so many obvious gaffes.

Let’s be parochial and look at some of the Scottish venues that did, and did not, make the 100-strong cut. Twenty-six are included on the list, with Muirfield ranked at No1. At least they got that right.

Lower down, however, some inexplicable ups and downs occur. Is there, for example, anyone from East Lothian who thinks that North Berwick’s west course (placed at 62) is a better test than Gullane No1 (78) Or that Luffness (89) is in any way superior to Dunbar, which doesn’t even make the list? Come on!

We are also asked to believe that the sixth-ranked Loch Lomond, a course on which hardly anyone gets to play, is a finer test of a golfer’s mettle than Carnoustie (12); that there are only seven courses in Scotland better than the picturesque, but hopelessly outdated, King’s course at Gleneagles; and that Kingsbarns (13) is a better place to play than Royal Dornoch (15). And where is Downfield, one of Scotland’s best inland layouts? Nowhere, sadly.

I ask you! None of this makes much sense.

Well, it does in one way. Of the examples listed, Kingsbarns and Gleneagles are commercial enterprises, openly looking for golfers to come to play - and to pay for the privilege. The likes of Carnoustie and Dornoch, one imagines, are not in the advertising market to quite the same extent. Their long-held, worldwide reputations as top-quality tests are surely enough to guarantee paying guests.

Call me cynical, but is Golf World, rather than trying to come up with a scientifically- generated and credible list, simply attempting to maximise advertising income? How else does one explain why, in the November issue, Carnoustie rates two pages of editorial while Kingsbarns - a lower-ranked course, remember - gets five? I could go on.

That is how it will always be with lists, even those compiled in the most straightforward of fashions. But that said, this is not one of which to be proud.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2002, 08:12:41 AM »
Not a bad rant to accompny your kippers and black pudding on a leisurely Sunday breakfast.

Huggan makes a few interesting points, one of which is his contention that higher handicap golfers can't and shouldn't "rate" courses.  Even though it is a demeaningly klutzish comment, does it merit some debate.  Perhaps there is a "top 100" set of courses for hackers that is completely different than the "top 100" for touring pros?  A different top 100 for ladies vs. gentlemen?  For those with BIAS and those of us who are completely objective? ;)

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that any numerical rating system is really not of any interest to me.  Understanding why certain people think that certain courses are "better" than others in terms of certain attributes (e.g. fairway bunkering) and why is interesting.  Which is why I like this site, most of hte time.

PS--would it surprise anybody to know that Huggan is a lifelong member of Dunbar? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2002, 08:18:55 AM »
Rich, as a 13 handicapper it makes me realize I should leave golf architecture to the experts (low handicappers). God forbid that I may understand a shot value without always being able to produce the shot consistantly.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2002, 08:30:09 AM »
I'm right there with you, Ian. I suppose some of the mid handicappers who were, and are some of the best architects, should have hung it up before they even chose a vocation.

If I can just eliminate a couple "blow-up holes" and a few 3 putts, I'll really understand what makes a hole or a course great!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

redanman

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2002, 08:46:04 AM »


There certainly is no merit to support the credentials of such an arbitrarily chosen elite, experience-based miniscule collection of free golf seekers.  8) :o :P :-X
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2002, 08:55:40 AM »
Ian and Craig

I don't meet Huggan's criterion for being a rater (not that I would ever want to be one!) and neither do just about any of the "raters" who post regularly on this site.

On the other hand, my understanding is that most "raters" tend to be above average golfers (i.e. 15 HCP and below).  Who's looking out for the interests of the real hacker?  Or, even for the "average" golfer.  Who's really looking after the interests of the ladies and the juniors and the super seniors?  Surely the 8th at Pebble Beach is a pretty brutal hole for anyone who can't carry the ball 180-200 yards.

I really do think, for example, that the "top 100" courses for ladies would look significantly different than any "top 100" we know of today.  As would the top 100 for +3 and above golfers, etc.

To get to what this forum is all about, who are you, Ian, for example, designing for?  Everyperson?  The "good" male golfer hoping that certain principles will have some sort of "trickle down" effect to the beginners?  The "good" male golfer but also adding in some features (e.g. foozle bunkers) to give the punters a thrill or two from time to time?

Is greatness defined as great for everybody who plays golf, or great for some exclusive subset of our community that happen to be able to play it at some certain level?  I'm not preaching here, just wondering........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

D. Kilfara

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2002, 09:02:23 AM »
Rich, I see what you're getting at, and I agree with you. I'm just surprised that you think so little of the Old Course when it's so good for ladies, super seniors, etc.

(Have I beaten that horse into the ground enough yet?) :)

Cheers,
Darren

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2002, 09:12:50 AM »
Rich, I don't think that list would be different, give the ladies more credit, they don't base there likes and dislikes on there ability to cary the ball. They base on the same issues men do. Whether you can score or even make some of the more difficult shots required, does not mean you can't appreciate a course.

Gary Player once stated that he was the best architect because none of the architects can hit one irons off the dirt to test out 240 yard par 3's. They are often poor architects for the same reasons that he stated above
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2002, 09:53:49 AM »
Ian

I'm not raising the question of correlating an architect's ability to play to his or her ability to design a "great" golf course.  We've been over this one before here, and it is obvious (to me, at least) that the answer is that there is a correlation but it is relatively minimal and may, in fact be due to other factors (e.g. opportunity).  My question is on what constitutes a "great" course vis a vis the perspective of the person playing it.  While I would never claim to understand women, particularly my wife, let me use her persective to show what I'm trying to get at.

She, although a good player (11) will (and did) see the Road Hole at TOC very differently than I.  To her, the concept of gambling with a power fade around the corner is only a theoretical one.  She does, and should, just hit it 220 out to the left.  Her next shot is a doddle-an easy 7-wood towards the right front of the green, and the next is a simple pitch up the slope towards the hole, favoring the right hand side to let the pitch feed down to the pin.  The OB (and hotel) right and the road hole bunker just do not really come into play for her.  It is a par 5 for her, and a fairly easy one at that.  So....is the Road Hole a great hole, or just an average hole?  Depends on your perspective, I think.

Darren

Yes. ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

D. Kilfara

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2002, 10:21:56 AM »
Rich, that's how *I* play the Road Hole nine times out of ten! Tell you what, in the next Goodale-Kilfara challenge match, I'll choose your wife as my partner and you can have Heather, OK? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2002, 02:26:23 PM »
Rich, excellent point, and I stand corrected with a little new
perspective.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark Ferguson

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2002, 05:13:05 PM »
If Huggan's theory is correct, doesn't that mean that Alister MacKenzie should have in fact been a hack architect like Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer and Gary Player, instead of perhaps the greatest of them all?
Doesn't it mean that the only person who is qualified to comment on the Mona Lisa's worth as a piece of art is in fact Da Vinci himself, because no one else has the requisite ability?
If high handicappers knew sweet FA about architecture, then why are such testing, "not as much fun" courses like Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills and Royal County down ranked ahead of Royal Dornoch, Ballybunion and Sunningdale?
Quote
Not a bad rant to accompny your kippers and black pudding on a leisurely Sunday breakfast.

Huggan makes a few interesting points, one of which is his contention that higher handicap golfers can't and shouldn't "rate" courses.  Even though it is a demeaningly klutzish comment, does it merit some debate.  Perhaps there is a "top 100" set of courses for hackers that is completely different than the "top 100" for touring pros?  A different top 100 for ladies vs. gentlemen?  For those with BIAS and those of us who are completely objective? ;)

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that any numerical rating system is really not of any interest to me.  Understanding why certain people think that certain courses are "better" than others in terms of certain attributes (e.g. fairway bunkering) and why is interesting.  Which is why I like this site, most of hte time.

PS--would it surprise anybody to know that Huggan is a lifelong member of Dunbar? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2002, 05:47:10 PM »
Since the top players (low handicappers) make up such a small percentage of the golfing public, why would any revenue driven magazine seek out thier opinon? Wouldn't they seek out a more broad based opinion?

I'd bet if there were a women's top hundred, someplace like Sentry World would lead the field, field of flowers that is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2002, 05:48:50 PM »
Huggan's article has zero credibility.
Kingsbarns gets more coverage because there's something new to write about!  

As for his course comparisons, I don't agree with anything he writes; he needs to get out more.

It's a dud panel, because it doesn't include any joe publics.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JohnV

Re: GW Top 100  Zero Credibility ?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2002, 06:05:20 PM »
I think I detect the definite odor of sour grapes in Mr. Huggan's article.  Probably mad because he didn't get to be one of the columnists.  I'd point out that our own beloved Emperor is no where near a scratch player, but definitely has one of the best (even if some think it is biased) eyes and knowledge regarding golf architecture that I know of.

Just because I can't execute the shots to take advantage of the architectural features of a hole doesn't mean I can't see them.  If Mr Schofield and Mr Jones have done any course setup in their roles, they probably know as much as most scratch golfers about a golf course.  Setting a course up for a tournament is usually a better way to learn about the architecture of a course than is playing it once.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »