turfgrass selection for new courses

[Tom Doak]

RJ Daley asked a question about this elsewhere and opened the door for me to say something about it.

A good part of the reason that Apache Stronghold has had conditioning problems is that, in hindsight, they don't have the right kind of grass on the fairways.  (And eventually, that's how they are going to fix the problem.)  There's a long story behind that, and I'm not going to go into all the details ... but there were a lot of people involved, and they didn't go with my initial recommendation.

Which is the topic of this thread.  It is incumbent upon the golf course architect to specify the grass varieties to be used throughout the course.  Some have experts in-house to do this (like Billy Fuller for Bob Cupp).  Some simply hand it over to a seed company or to the golf course superintendent to make the choices.  We tend to consult with outside sources and then choose the grasses ourselves, and it frequently becomes a sore subject.

Why?  Because I'm not a Ph.D. in turfgrass selection, even though I have seen more different grasses in use on more different golf courses in different climates than most Ph.D.'s.  But whenever we make a selection, every seed company that didn't sell us the seed is there to second-guess us.  Every superintendent who comes on board wants to do it their way.  And they all are quick to point out that we're just architects, not turfgrass experts.

A couple of times I have yielded on this subject ... and I'm learning to stick to my guns, because in the end it will come back to haunt the guy whose name is on the scorecard.  The superintendent who overruled us at Beechtree is long gone, although thankfully Russ Davis has made his choices stand up beautifully.  The consultants and seed salesmen who assured us that dwarf bluegrasses would work at Apache Stronghold, and that bermuda would be too weak from long periods of dormancy ... where are they now?  They sure aren't saying anything on Golf Club Atlas!

And of course, any time you suggest fescue fairways, anywhere, you are besieged by people telling your owner it just won't work in America.  The green industry in the U.S. seems to operate in much the same fashion as the "military/industrial complex" which Eisenhower warned us about.

The bottom line is that most architects tend to be very conservative in their grass selections, on the principle of "better safe than sorry."  There is a lot to be said for this of course -- you don't want your course to get the kind of press that Apache Stronghold is now getting -- but in fact sometimes it works the other way and you take the fall for someone else's sales pitch.

Does this happen to other architects, or just to me?

[Brad Swanson]

Tom,
   What was the other choice(s) for the grass used to seed Beechtree's fairways?  When I played there in September this year, the course was in great shape (especially considering the drought), playing fast and firm.  I can't imagine it playing much differently with another type of grass, although maintenance would certainly be different.

Brad Swanson

[Tom Doak]

The change at Beechtree was just in the cultivar of bent that was used, and in how much fescue went into the roughs ... not a huge change.  Although, you reminded me that at one point the owner wanted us to explore using zoysia on the fairways ... glad I talked him out of that!

[Todd Eckenrode]

Tom-I share your frustration.  Personally, I'm a big believer in expertise, and like to have qualified consultants involved...oftentimes following their choice (as long as I agree with it!!!)  But ultimately, as you say, the choice reflects upon the architect on the card.

[Lou Duran]

TD,

I forget what grasses you used at Red Raider.  Can you tell me again?  What is the projected opening date?  What are your objections to zoysia?

If the assertion that you make about architects being conservative, wouldn't that mean that promising new strains or hybrids like Champions get an unreasonably cool reception?  What are your experts advising you regarding Tiff-Eagle vs. Champions in areas where bent doesn't do well?

[Steven_Biehl]

Mr. Doak,

Architects many times want a specific grass for there course.  But, not all grasses work everywhere.  Turfgrass selection for a course is a major undertaking and should not be taken lightly.  That is why the help of a Ph.D. should be taken.  There are big differences between bentgrass cultivars that the Ph.D. will know about and not the architect.  Turfgrass selection can be the difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in the maintenance budget if not selected properly.  Or most oftenly will result in reseeding, which is not cheap either.

[Brian Phillips]

Tom,

Aren't the fairways at Sand Hills a fescue mix of some sort?  If it can work in that heat and wind then surely it can work in most parts of the country if not the world.

Brian.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I share your experiences.  Usually, the super and/or management company comes into the project after the architect.  They review everything from an operations perspective, including grass.  As often as not, they recommend changes to their favorite selections for the area.

In some cases, this is influenced by local salesman, with whom the super has a preexisting relationship, or if a management company, a national buying agreement.  I have lost out on several arguments (after all, the super is the one who has to grow it)  with it working out both ways.  At Colbert Hills, I favored A-4, and we used L93, which I am very happy with.  We chose it as a medium maintenance grass, at the expense of a slight decrease in possible green speed and playability.  The color is great, its fast enough,

There are so many turf choices today, it isn't easy to know which to use.  Its usually not an all or nothng choice, but a matter of degrees - of color, speed, grain, disease resistance, etc. for greens, and most of the above and water useage, thatch, etc. for fairways.  (The most typical debate for fairways is blue vs. bent)

On the other hand, I disagree with Stephen Biehl that a PhD is required!  Give me someone who has selected grasses and grown grasses in the region on several courses versus someone who has studied it in the research fields! Before I went to a researcher to select a grass, I would go down the street to see what a grizzled old superintendent was growing well.

A decade ago, golf architects chose greens mix.....then a  bunch of soil scientists convinced everyone (including archies afraid of liability) that we weren't capable of that.  Now, I see tissue testing, PhD in agronomy, etc. saying we don't know enough about grass to choose it?  As mentioned above, it is more complicated, but it doesn't have to be that complicated.

Salesman and PhD's are great resources for learning about new grasses, but not always in the best position to make the call.  Golf Architects should use both common sense, the supers input, and tried and true varieties for best results.

I think their is still some value in tryng new grasses in real life conditions, as opposed to research fields, especially in the cases where an architect is trying to do something different, like create links conditions.  Of course, the Owner should be aware of the potential risks.

[RJ_Daley]

Right on Jeff!  I may not have credentials to make any bold statements here, but I think your inclination to go down the road to ask a successful veteran and educated superintendent from the region which turf species or cultivar is best, is the most sound advice.  They mentioned Sand Hills above and their use of fescue/rye mix in the fairways.  But, the sister course in my opinion has better fairway turf down at Wild Horse.  The local superintendents know that the micro climate just 100 miles away at WH has too much relative humidity to support vast fairways of fescue.  It is tough enough to maintain the surrounds in the fescue at WH to provide those neat chipping and putting from off the greens playing features.  Those surrounds of fescue are great but far more succeptable to heat stress/disease from humid nights and winter kills.  The blue fairways are robust/healthy,firm and fast - near perfect surface to play on every time of year that I have seen them.  They picked those correct species and cultivars due to local knowledge.

If you are thinking about buying a reliable new car or truck, it is a good idea to go to a savvy mechanic to see which has the least problems from their perspective based on how you intend to use the vehicles than go to the factory engineers or sales people.

[A_Clay_Man]

This thread has put some silly questions in my head but I would ask if you could please indulge me if they are truely that silly.

Can/Does an architect leave a sort of bible behind to describe his intent either for the entire course or, on each and every hole?

It seems to me that with the high probability of many different supers having the responsibility of maintaining your work, anything that will serve as a key or guide to intent would ensure longevity and be a reference when someone has deviated from those intentions.

I have been wondering about some of the grasses and length of grass that is used here at Pinon. It seems that the desire to grow the rough long, especially around the greens, limits the intent or playing more ground game oriented shots.

Thoughts?

[Tom Doak]

Adam,

I wrote something of a "bible" for High Pointe and The Legends, and it was pretty much tossed aside ... so I have spent the same time on subsequent projects trying to get the client and the initial superintendent to understand our intent.

Mr. Biehl (or is it Dr. Biehl):

Indeed, the turfgrass experts at Michigan State told us that fescue fairways and greens would not work on a sandy site in northern Michigan.  I still believe they were wrong.  Their standard was the greenest, purest surface possible, regardless of maintenance budget.  Mine was a fast and firm surface which allowed you to putt from well off the greens, and at a lower maintenance budget.  

In hindsight, perhaps we should have used some Colonial bentgrass in the mix ... maybe even some Poa annua.  We are still learning how to do fescue right in the U.S.A.  But if you look at the GOLFWEEK list of the top modern designs, you'll notice that the top four (Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes, Whistling Straits and Bandon Dunes) all have fescue-based fairways.  There's a reason for that, and it has something to do with playing conditions for golf that some Ph.D.'s just don't seem to relate to.

Jeff B:  Glad to hear someone else has the same life experience ... and sorry for you, as well!  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mr. Biehl,
I'd suggest you visit The Kingsley Club before you dismiss the use of fescue in the Traverse City area.

My input is turfgrass selection needs to be based on many factors including the commitment to employing a quality supt. Will a grass like fescue work just because the weather and soil conditions are suited for it? No, because the use of a grass like that requirews a commitment from ownership to a program that allows for success. I personally believe we are using to much bermuda for greens in areas where bent was used before. But, if ownership is not willing to do the things needed for the bent to be a success, then bermuda is the prudent choice. Lots of things go into choosing a grass and its doubtfull anyone has as good an understanding of the goals and expectaions of a new property as the architect. With careful selection of consultants, there is no reason a knowledgable architect can't spec turfgrasses that will meet expectations with the proper care.

[TEPaul]

What a wonderful thread!

Normally I have something to say on Golfclubatlas but not on this thread! I really don't know squat about turfgrasses, agronomy etc but I'm sure trying to learn!

I realize it's a lot to ask and could be a lot to do but could any of you put together on here a basic list of grasses, what they do and don't do in various regions etc? Maybe even something about grasses of the past, their strengths and weakness for playability as well as some of the newer strains, what they were created to do--the trade offs, whatever!

This is a thread where the more the better would really be a great asset to many of us out here!

It should probably be a thread put into a permenant place on Golfclubatlas for anyone to refer to with ease!

[Steven_Biehl]

Mr. Doak,

Some colonial bentgrass in the fairway mixture may have helped.  But I suspect that the colonial would have become dominant over the years.  I do recognize that some of the top courses have fescue on their fairways.  At Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes, it is very possible that these sites will be successful.

Mr. Mahaffey,

I am aware that The Kingsley Club has fescue fairways.  This situation may be able to pull it off.  The biggest plus for this site is the number of rounds.  I believe the number of rounds at this course peaked at 1900 last year.

 

[Leslie_Claytor]

Has anyone ever heard of a cool grass fairway blend called European Tour mix?  It's a combination of bent, blue, fescue and rye that reflects the diversity of grass types found on Scottish courses.  Iv'e never used it, but the Tour agronomist suggested it as a possibility in San Francisco and conceptually I think it makes sense.

[Paul Albanese]

Interesting topic.................when I first started designing, I would get all the NTEP trial books........compare all the numbers.........do my research.........call my colleauges..........ask the PHD's and seed salesmen.......it was a lot of work.............but then, the superintendent would always have his "favorite" grass........i.e the one he felt comfortable with.............and, the substitution would be made..........that is when I made a judgement, the turfgrass selection process really should be a combination of all the points made in this thread..........the architect should know what they want in terms of color, texture, playablity, etc...........the PHDs and sales guys should be consulted to see what is the latest in that arena...........and, the superintendent should definitely have a strong weigh in.....but, which opinion should rule the day?  that depends.........how familiar the architect is with that climatic zone............the experience of the superintendend with the grasses............I have never felt comfortable with a superintendent trying to grow in a grass that he was against in the first place..............in the back of their head, they may be thinking "this is not the grass I would have picked!........hence the reason it is not coming in well."..............and, I believe it would be worse if they were not consulted at all........that lack of respect would make most people feel slighted, and then their heart may not be in the grow in..........an analogous situation is when an architect is handed a corridor routing by a land planner and told to "design the rest", with no consultation on the routing or land plan............no professional likes be "dissed" by those ahead of him or her.........and, when they are, their efforts are often less than the requiste 100%............so, when selecting turfgrass, I think understanding that the superintendent is a professional is key, and having them contribute to the selection process is critical...........

[Don_Mahaffey]

Steven,
You kind of made my point for me. Yes, fescue will not work with high cart traffic and a low budget. That's why I believe the architect should be the final decison maker when it comes to turf selection. He should be able to balance client expectations, agronomic input by qualified consultants, budget realities, and playability to determine which grasses or cultivars are used. I can't imagine anyone else would have as good a comprehensive grasp of the entire project and desired outcomes as the person who designed the course. That doesn't mean he shouldn't rely upon good advice, but he needs to balance that advice with his vision for the course. The truly great courses in the world are where it all comes together, no? A private course designed to play firm and fast may "get away" with a different turf then a high volume public. My experience is turfgrass consultants aren't the biggest risk takers around. This is where the archie may go against the grain if he knows the things will be in place to support his selections.

[Michael Stachowicz]

I am glad I was able to make the turfgrass selection for our site.  I was able to make sure that it was going to work in the area, with the budget we had, the amount of traffic we expected, and the irrigation system that was being installed.  I have seen just as many architects take the spec directly from Lesco and spec the same thing for every job.  How is it's color in the off season, disease resistance, what heights is it going to be mowed at?  

I am sorry, but if I am the one who has to take care of it and get it grown in and compete with other properties, I want to choose it with the architects end goals in mind.  This goes with the old concept that the supt. should be charged with carrying on the architects vision after construction. But, unfortunately, it has become such a transient job.

[Buck Wolter]

Mr. Doak-
Do you have something against Zoysia in general or is it a regional issue? In the St. Louis area it seems to be ideal as a low maintenance, fairly firm fairway grass -- especially compared to how much water bent needs to survive our hot humid summers. Divots fill in quickly and the lies are usually perfect. The main drawback appears to be the brown color in Mid-Fall thru Mid-Spring.


Buck Wolter

[Tom Doak]

Buck:  I am not a big fan of zoysia.  In most of the climates where it is used it is dormant for a good part of the year, and when it's dormant it just soaks up water like a sponge and gets soggy.  Whereas on most turf, 2% surface drainage seems to work fine, you'd better have 3% or more for zoysia.

I would consider it in places like St. Louis where it's too hot and humid for bent, and bermuda has severe winterkill problems.  It also seems to be less disease-prone than most other fairway turfs.  But north of Baltimore, it would have been dormant well into the spring, and none of the customers would have accepted it.

Mr. Biehl:  Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes have had 200 rounds per day all summer (and will push 40,000 each for the calendar year).  Traffic is certainly an issue, but so far it does not seem to be an insurmountable one.  At any rate, our main considerations are that the grass is tight and firm and green; as long as it stays that way, I'm not getting out the microscope.

Also, it is true that Sand Hills has overseeded with some ryegrass after tough winters -- that first winter the grass just freeze-dried, I don't know if any grass would have survived it.  But Sand Hills is still predominantly fescue.

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

In your initial post you said "Every superintendent who comes on board wants to do it their way. And they all...."

I would bet there is several good superintendents who woyuld be more than willing to understand your design philosophies and work with you to select the proper varieties without it being an ego tug-of war.

Must be "all" your projects didn't hire the super best suited to your design intentions at the appropriate time.

Joe