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Dan_Callahan

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Anthony Butler

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2006, 10:22:54 AM »
Maybe some of the jack-asses who work in pro-shops in the Greater Boston area will start recognizing that being a smart-aleck is not good for business... I can tell you that the clubs that keep their course in good condition and treat people like human beings are still doing well.
Next!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 11:01:44 AM »
Dan,
Sad, but true. The general decline started in 2002 and has worsened ever since. All the reasons given in the article make sense, but weather is the leading factor. This has been the worst spring I've seen in my 11 years at Hotchkiss. Even well conditioned courses, with friendly staffs  ::) , are hurting.
When the weather is so bad so early and for so long it dissipates the pent-up demand among golfers in the north east. Problem is, it never builds back and the rest of the season suffers because of it.
The only people I saw playing this spring (on overcast/windy/ drizzly days with temps hovering around 40 degrees) were private club members, and the only reason they were out was to keep their per round price at an acceptable level.

Looks like another 4 or 5 days of heavy rains coming up for NE. Good time to practice my thumb-twiddling.  :o
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 04:46:50 PM »
I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but this ran in my local (Gloucester, MA) paper today:

http://www.ecnnews.com/cgi-bin/05/gtstory.pl?sec-News+fn-fn-fn-ggolfstudy-20060623-

Dahlmer researching benefits to city of golf course
   
By Danielle Clark
Correspondent

Fifteen weeks, 100 pages and a big fat "A" is where Ed Dahlmer's research project has taken him so far, and that is only his first draft.

The 47-year-old is back in college after putting off the completion of his degree to start a family, and as a tax-paying resident of Gloucester, Ed Dahlmer knew of the city's financial problems and from past proposals that a municipal golf course might be one way to generate new revenue.

He also knew that no one had ever done an in-depth study on the possibilities of building a golf course in Gloucester. Dahlmer thought his senior thesis for his bachelor's degree in business administration at Endicott College in Beverly was the perfect opportunity to delve into the idea.

"I wanted to do something that would benefit someone or something and not just be a waste of time," said the senior sales support staffer at Varian Semiconductor Equipment Associates. "And the city really needs a source of revenue."

The idea of a municipal golf course has been putted around Gloucester for years.

Just last year, then-Ward 5 Councilor Edward St. Peter said a public course on the land between Route 128 and Kondelin Road could produce a dependable revenue stream of at least $400,000. Nothing came of the idea as St. Peter lost a tight race in November to Walter Peckham as councilor of Gloucester's largest ward.

Peckham questioned whether the time is right for a municipal golf course.

"Right now we need to be looking at our current sources of revenue," he said "Like the waterfront and cleaning up our beaches."

Dahlmer said his research has used more conservative numbers and finds revenue will probably not be as high as $400,000, at least in the first few years.

"I don't want to overestimate the amount of money that would come in," said Dahlmer, who based a lot of his research on "Building a Practical Golf Facility" by M. Hurdzan and many interviews.

 He estimated a 9-hole course would cost the city $3.75 million and generate $100,000 a year in net profit until the loan is paid off, and then he estimates it would increase to $325,000 a year, not including any grants the city might take advantage of.

Dahlmer identified the same land St. Peter had suggested near Kondelin Road, from a December 2005 map for future development created by the city. The city engineer's map found the land, which is near Cape Ann Industrial Park, to be 139 acres. Dahlmer said a minimum of 140 acres is needed for an 18-hole course, making the land ideal for a 9-hole course.

"Basically," he said, "at the end of the day would you rather see a golf course on that land or an industrial park?"

Peckham said he believes the city already owns most of the land and is already working with Kondelin Road businesses to expand the area. He is worried the golf course might be constructed on a watershed and access to the land might be difficult.

"How are people going to get to this area?" he asked. "Coming off the highway or what? I don't know."

Possible construction of a golf course also raises the question of protecting natural wetlands and wildlife in the area that might be destroyed. But Dahlmer said the area can be protected if the course is created on the environmental principles created by the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America and certified by the Audubon Society.

"Naturalistic golf courses can even require less pesticides and other things that can be hazardous to wildlife," he said.

The only golf course in Gloucester is the private 18-hole Bass Rocks Golf Club. In Rockport, the Rockport Golf Club, a 9-hole, semi-private club, assigns tee times for the public only when slots are left open by its members.

Stephen Clayton, golf professional at Rockport, said when the club is open to the public there is a fair number of nonmembers who head to the fairway.

"I would say people in this area would most likely be interested in a public golf course," he said.

Dahlmer has begun a survey to gauge interest in a golf course.

He has received more than 100 of the 300 responses he said he needs.

Dahlmer is a golfer himself but said he plans to let the research speak for itself. When the work is finished, he plans to present it to the mayor and City Council.

Peckham, a non-golfer, said he is looking forward to the information.

"I'd like to see his research, and I congratulate him on doing it," he said. "We've always heard different angles — good idea, bad idea — but there has been no research, — that's what we need. We might find that it is something that will be on our radar screen a lot sooner than we think."

Dahlmer said if a golf course isn't the answer, the city should pursue other creative revenue ideas.

"There are probably ideas out there," he said. "They just need to be pursued."

Fairways?

Should Gloucester build a public golf course? If you have an opinion, please answer the survey available at http://express.perseus.com/perseus/surveys/1734848031/4bc0b2d0.htm

Walter Bart

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 05:40:19 PM »
  While golf activity  north of Boston has declined, the article did not mention the opening of the Peabody Course in that time frame as a factor in the decline of rounds at  other nearby courses. I think they did around 35000 rounds last year.  Whatever you may think of the challenging layout there( try once to walk the 18 holes) the greens are  always in great shape.  

ForkaB

Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2006, 04:32:33 AM »
Most of my very few adolescent rounds of golf were played at Candlewood and Cape Ann north of Boston.  Please tell me guys, that these 9-hole gems are still there..... :o

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2006, 07:13:00 AM »
I don't think it's the weather.  I think it's, as the article calls it, "the lure of family activities".

This isn't the same culture we used to have.  Kids play everything in organized leagues, or they participate in organized programs - almost none of which deal with golf.

The parents spend all day shuttling the kids from soccer to dance to whatever.  And the kids don't play golf.

When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, we played with neighbors in our yards.  Heck - my mom never even had a drivers license.  We never would have been able to afford a private golf club, but we purchased our town's municipal courses' season passes every year.  We rode our bikes to the course where we met our friends and played all day.

Sorry to say that it's not like that today...

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2006, 07:38:50 AM »
I don't think it's the weather.  I think it's, as the article calls it, "the lure of family activities".

This isn't the same culture we used to have.  Kids play everything in organized leagues, or they participate in organized programs - almost none of which deal with golf.

The parents spend all day shuttling the kids from soccer to dance to whatever.  And the kids don't play golf.

When I was a kid in the 60's and 70's, we played with neighbors in our yards.  Heck - my mom never even had a drivers license.  We never would have been able to afford a private golf club, but we purchased our town's municipal courses' season passes every year.  We rode our bikes to the course where we met our friends and played all day.

Sorry to say that it's not like that today...


Dan -

You nailed it.  "Our children are our futre and our most precious resource" way of thinking (Right or wrong) is partly to blame.  Organized play is safety for the parents and our peace of mind.  Without going into the sociological factors, course owners and the PGA can take a step to be pro-active.  While we can't stop the rain, below are a few suggestions:

1) The PGA should organize a little league golf scenario.  Play the matches in the afternoons on weekdays.  Sat. or Sun. matches are parent-child team play after a :30 minute clinic on the range.  Fees for the league cover the instruction.  Rain outs have an indoor lesson on putting, etiquette, rules, equipment, history and maybe even strategy/architecture.  Video or downloads to computers could be distibuted to act as references/instruction.

My $ says that parents would rather play with their kids than watch another "Walk-a-thon" Little League Baseball Game.

2).  Frequent Flyer progams sponsored by the equipment companies.  Play 10 Rounds - get a sleeve of balls.  Get a Hanicap for the first time, get a free :30 lesson, etc.

3).  Change the formats.  Nothing is more boring than best ball net of four or the Chicago system which nobody understands anyway.  9 hole matchs, scrambles (modified or Texas), string tournaments, beat the pro, etc.

Golf need not be an 18 hole, 4-5 hour medal play marathon.  Get the kids on the golf course, and create golfers for life.

Caddie programs used to be the feeder program.

JWK

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2006, 09:22:21 AM »
Most of my very few adolescent rounds of golf were played at Candlewood and Cape Ann north of Boston.  Please tell me guys, that these 9-hole gems are still there..... :o

They're both still there.  Candlewood has added numerous water hazards this spring; I didn't catch the architect's name.

And Cape Ann looks like a WW1 battlefield, mostly from golf cart tracks.  But I'm sure the view from the 4th tee is still as spectacular as ever.


Craig Sweet

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Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2006, 09:39:34 AM »
A 9 hole course vs. an industrial park.....hmmm....I wonder how much revenue an industrial park would generate over and above the cost of services to it?  I bet it generates more revenue than the 9 holer.
We are no longer a country of laws.

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Bad trend for course owners in New England
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 05:56:18 AM »
A 9 hole course vs. an industrial park.....hmmm....I wonder how much revenue an industrial park would generate over and above the cost of services to it?  I bet it generates more revenue than the 9 holer.

TPC Cottonwood Generates revenue...Office Park Mini Flog...

JWK