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Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2006, 11:31:15 AM »
Jordan:

I have played golf near Seattle - Semiahmoo.  The heavy air issue wasn't all that huge there as I recall... but I can imagine in wet times it sure would be.

Near the ocean this is always gonna be how it is.  Man, at Olympic Club you are a fool if you don't play one club more than normal on all approach shots except on the brightest, sunniest and hottest of days.

Heavy air does matter.

And heck, you need to get to the desert... you could REALLY pound the ball there.

TH

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
And David, you need to learn to embrace and love #1 Poppy Hills... 2iron out to the left, 5-6iron to the green.  No profit on hitting anything else off the tee.  I gather you got that part though.  As for the approach, it is against the prevailing wind... and remember sea air is heavier... yes it does tend to play its distance.  Go get 'em today!

 ;D

For a proclaimed short-knocker, you sure hit your 2-iron a long ways ... 415 yards from the blue markers, against the wind and heavy air.  3-wood / 6-iron would be pushing it ...

I hit my "bunt-cut" driver on that hole. It's a 235-250 yard lowish semi-slice that I control unbelievably well. I hit it on three different holes on that course. Haven't missed number one fairway yet...

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2006, 12:34:46 PM »
David - fair enough, we can work with that off the tee.  As your caddie, I am now just advising you on the approach shot to allow a bit for dead air and look at the tops of the trees to assess wind, and perhaps hit a bit more stick than you think.  We don't want to attack a back pin, mind you - as long is pretty dead - but we do want to get it on the green.  Four is a fine score, one we will be very happy with.

 ;)




Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2006, 12:35:31 PM »
Haven't missed number one fairway yet...

So then how did you pull off a "Full-Monty" and double it?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2006, 12:37:13 PM »
He either dumps it in the front bunker and gets a horrid lie requiring four more shots, or he misses right in the hazard, or he goes long onto the next tee and thus blocked by tree, or perhaps in the hazard that direction....

There are lots of ways to make 6 - or worse - from the fairway on #1 Poppy.  But we do not want our man thinking about that - we want positive thoughts.

Let the rest of the field contemplate disasters.

 ;)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 12:37:48 PM by Tom Huckaby »

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2006, 12:27:18 AM »
I hit three wood on the first at Poppy.  It left me a five iron yesterday and a seven iron today.  The guys I played with are longer than me and both hit hybrid irons that seemed like two iron replacements.  I think the green is the most difficult aspect of the hole, like a lot of them out there.

I was fortunate to get through to Pebble tomorrow so I expect to have some comments about it.  I didn't play a practice round because I think even the reduced-rate $200 was too much to pay.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

ForkaB

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2006, 02:28:46 AM »
Well done, Andrew.  Good luck!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2006, 10:01:44 AM »
Hear, here!  Way to go Andrew!  Qualifying for StateAm at all is one hell of an achievement; making it through to the next phase means you are one serious Player.  Well done for sure.

And yeah, $200 does remain a lot to pay for golf.  Now you don't have to.

 ;)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 12:25:33 PM by Tom Huckaby »

MarkT

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2006, 01:03:32 AM »
Quote
hate number one with the white hot passion of a thousand suns. The frickin' approach is DOWNHILL, yet it sometimes plays a full club LONGER than the distance. I just don't get it.
I think what may fool you is the size of that green. And the back end of it is not as far downhill as one would think. I've hit driver/5 wood to a back pin and driver wedge to a front. It's all depends on pin placement and the winds.

#12 is the one that I don't get. Flat to the green then uphill on the green, yet if you hit on the front edge, you'll end up on the back  ::)

Jim Nugent

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2006, 02:49:51 AM »
Did you guys see what Andrew shot in the 3rd round?  

3-under 69.

Closing in on top ten.  

ForkaB

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2006, 03:22:51 AM »
Hmmmm.

3 birdies, no bogeys at Pebble. :o

No wonder I've never been able to win the Carnegie Shield since Andrew started playing in it.  Or even 20 years before then, now that I think of it...... :'(

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2006, 09:39:33 AM »
Andrew's feat yesterday goes beyond the remarkable and really goes into legend.  It is REALLY high-level playing to make the final 32 match play in the CA State Am.  Jeez 69 at Pebble with no practice round, having not seen it in apparently 7 years... that's fantastic enough... but to do in that type of pressure competition?

The words golf stud come to mind.

Interestingly also, the man has hooked a HUGE fish as his match play opponent this morning... one young Joseph Bramlett, high school pehom on his way to Stanford, winner of many titles around here and nationwide, a name you are REALLY gonna hear about if you haven't already - and anyone familiar with CA golf knows all about the kid and has for a few years now.

It's a win-win for Andrew... that is, if he loses, hell it's expected.  Bramlett really is the biggest "name" in the field.  If he wins... well... that's a trophy to tell the grandchildren about.

TH

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2006, 10:58:08 AM »
I had a brief conversation with Andrew yesterday and he is raring to go today.  GCA-karma will be with him today as Stan Dodd will be on his bag.

Bramlett was the runner-up in this event last year as a 17-year old.  

Andrew will do fine today, the guys in the upper echelon of NorCal Amateur golf have seen his name on the leaderboard in many events in 2006 ... making it to the round of 32 at the SF City, losing to the eventual champion; 2nd place in the Santa Clara County Championships (by  11 shots to Bramlett !!! ), 5th place in the Monterey Bay Championship ...

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2006, 11:08:48 AM »
Oh hell yeah - it is very much worth noting that Andrew himself is becoming quite a name here also, pretty darn quickly.

I too believe he'll do just fine... that is unless Stan messes him up.

 ;D ;D

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2006, 12:55:45 AM »
Guys, thanks for all your support and kind words.  I had a great time out at Pebble both yesterday and today.  Unfortunately I didn't play nearly as well today and lost my match to Joseph 2&1, with a few mishit putts that I could have made being the ultimate difference.  I also hit several loose shots that didn't help my efforts.  I didn't play terribly, though, shooting a match-play 74 (surprisingly they let me play the 18th in).  Joseph is extremely solid and plays confidently, so I expect him to do well both this week and well into the future.

Many thanks to Stan Dodd for caddying for me today.  I usually cary my own, but it was great to be able to bounce my thoughts off of him as I was playing.  He certainly knows the course better than I do and was very helpful in a several key situations.  Plus, his help on the greens was really valuable since I often have trouble trusting my reads.  (Stan, I mishit the one on 15, it was *not* a misread.)

And, Tom H., I think the term "golf stud" might be an oxymoron, but I appreciate the sentiment.  Also, I was one person that wasn't expecting me to lose that match today; in 18 holes of match play I think anyone can beat anyone, which is why it's so much fun.

I'll give my comments on the course in a separate post to get this thread back on track ...
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2006, 02:10:07 AM »
I'll give my comments on the course in a separate post to get this thread back on track ...

Please do ... and having played 2 rounds each at Poppy and Pebble, which is the more demanding course?  Which is better for match play?  

Congrats on your fine play.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2006, 05:17:41 AM »
Wow.  I just typed up my thoughts on the front nine and they got eaten after hitting preview since my session had timed out and I was no longer logged in.  I'll try and post my thoughts on the back nine and overall course tomorrow.  Here are the front nine thoughts (copy and pasted from an external editor); for those of you who are more familiar with the course, please feel to correct and/or add to anything I've written:

The first narrows up far enough out that one ends up hitting a much longer iron shot into the green than they would normally, given the length of the hole.  This removes the need to control the spin of the approach shot into the green, which is steeply sloped from back to front.  I even saw a few balls bounce up from the front of the green to the middle/back.

The cross bunker on the approach to the second is very severe.  I couldn't tell from the fairway and had it been playing into a strong wind or at a long enough yardage, it would have presented a very interesting choice.  I imagine if one hits it in one of the fairway bunkers then they'd have to make that choice as well.  Missing the green anywhere but short left is a very difficult up and down, so much so that if I had any concerns of not carrying the cross bunker, I'd just lay back and give myself a full shot in.

We played a temp green at the third, but the front right greenside bunker (for the real green) looked very well positioned.   This and the apparent (from a distance) slope of the green away and to the left from that bunker, makes one want to position their tee ball in the the left side of the fairway, which requires challenging the trees, bunker, and ravine.  Given the length of the shot, that really requires hitting a draw since any shot hit straight will travel too far to the right to have a good angle or will run through into the rough.  It's nice to see shaping the ball being important, but this wasn't an issue with the temp green (does my 69 get a big old asterisk?).

Upon reflection, the fourth is an awkward tee shot yardage-wise.  The small fairway bunker that you want to avoid is within reach of my 19 degree Raylor, but the large pre-fairway bunker is ~195 to carry, which is cutting close to my carry distance for a three iron.  I pured three iron both times, but if I played it again I'd probably hit the Raylor to be safe.  The green from the fairway looks to be a reasonable size -- it isn't, it's tiny.  Both times I walked up onto the green I was struck by how small it is and felt fortunate to be safely on.

I don't see why anyone would aim anywhere but the front left portion of the green (at the tree directly behind the green) on five.  If the ball lands and rolls, it will funnel back to the rest of the green with the slope.  If the hole location is on the front then, well, you want it to land there and stick.  

Six is awesome and is probably my favorite hole out there.  Standing on the tee and looking out at the steep rise into the cliffs with the green in the distance is a great view (and a taste of some of the land to come).  I ended up in the bunker left both times and just punching up to the top to have a short wedge in, so I didn't get to experience the thought process of going for the green in two.  I'd imagine the further you hit your drive and the closer you get to the steep rise, the more you have to worry about getting the ball up in the air quickly enough to not fly straight into the hill.  This sort of obstacle is usually only encountered when playing recovery shots such as from a fairway bunker with a steep lip or trying to go over a group of trees (say on the 18th at Winged Foot West after you've just hit the dumbest shot of your life), so I find it really interesting to see it used as part of the regular challenge of a hole.  Is this as much of an issues as it seems?

Looking down at the big drop down to seven I realized that regardless of how low you hit your shot from that tee, if the wind is up it's going to affect your shot because of how much higher the tee is from the green.  It was pretty calm so I hit SW and a half PW, but the hole looked like it was begging for a chip mid-iron.  I really wish the wind had been up (or I wasn't somewhat concerned about my score) so I could have just tried it for fun.  Maybe I'll go back to play and try it out since it's such a cheap green fee.

On eight, the angle of the edge of the cliff in relation to the tee shot presents an interesting option to play further into the corner of the fairway and get closer to the green.  The amount the approach shot plays less because of the drop is tough to judge, but I mishit both my approach shots and got to even with the front portion of the green, so it must play a bit shorter.  The front left half of the green is way more severely sloped than I imagined.  I wondered how they'd find any hole locations on that portion of the green when they get the greens up to Tour or US Open speeds.  The up and down to that portion of the green seemed significantly easier from right of the green than left of the green.

The fairway on nine really slopes down and away through the landing area.  The shot is fun because you have an awkward downhill and sidehill lie where you're hitting less club than you think you need (since it's getting delofted big time) and the tendency is for the ball to drift towards the ocean.  The greenside bunker being on the left makes the conservative line into the green on the right, closer to the ocean.  The green sets up best for accepting a high draw, but the lie in the fairway really promotes a low fade.  And the green is very undulated so you want to be below the hole here big time.


Please do ... and having played 2 rounds each at Poppy and Pebble, which is the more demanding course?  Which is better for match play?  

Congrats on your fine play.

Thanks, Mike.  Just based on my scores, Poppy would be tougher.  But, I don't think that's a fair comparison with only two rounds on each (especially given that, as you know, I botched up my front nine of both my rounds at Poppy).  Looking at the entire field's scores is probably a better bet, and my sense (without actually looking) is that Poppy did play tougher even if you look at just those of us who made the 36 hole cut.

I think each is demanding in different ways.  Poppy's greens are much larger and heavily contoured with many mounds, separate sections, and areas you don't want to be putting across.  Pebble's greens are much smaller and generally have steep but consistent slopes.  At Poppy you're trying to hit specific portions of greens and at Pebble you're just trying to hit the green and keep it below the hole if possible.  I don't have a card in front of me, but Poppy felt significantly longer and required a lot more long to mid-iron approach shots; at Pebble on Wednesday I felt like I was hitting three quarter to full pitching wedges into most holes, which made hitting the smaller greens much easier.

I think Pebble is better for match play because it has more interesting holes.  That, plus the increased likelihood of the wind whipping up or the fog coming in off the sea (like today, which was great I thought) just makes for a more interesting challenge.  Pebble also seems like the kind of course where you can make a lot of birdies if you get it going (there were a lot of low numbers on Wednesday) but there's a lot of places not too far off line where it's very tough to make a par.  Both of these factors make it possible to fight your way back from a pretty good deficit (like Scott Hardy did this afternoon) so the match never feels like it's over until it's over.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2006, 10:26:39 AM »
Andrew - you're probably right - as much as we'd like think otherwise, "golf stud" probably is an oxymoron.  But if anyone can make it a real term, you are it.  Way to go.  And oh yes, Benham and I were chatting about "anything can happen in 18-hole match play", so we both had high hopes.  Hell you were the better seed against young Joseph anyway!  I just meant to indicate what a huge name he is around here...

And great comments re Poppy and Pebble.  It has always seemed clear to me that Poppy is the more difficult golf course, and hell Spyglass is tougher than both.  I just also think it's very clear Pebble is the BETTER course.  I know Mike didn't ask for that and thus you weren't commenting on that... But your words about Pebble rather make that shine through anyway.

I really think the coolest thing about your success this week is it earned you two "free" rounds at Pebble... But I am not a competitive golfer.  I know you wanted more.  

 ;D

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2006, 10:57:32 AM »
Tom,

Joseph is definitely a big name around here and rightly so.  I imagine he'll be a big name everywhere in the coming years.  There's no doubt he's a better player than me, and I expect that gap to widen as he continues to work on his game at school and I continue to spend most of my days at work, but it was fun to have a chance to play with and against him again.  I meant nothing bad by my reply to you, I just wanted to mention that I felt confident going into that match and knew I had a great chance if I played well.  Maybe next time ...

Yes, it seems I didn't explicitly say that I thought Pebble is a better course than Poppy -- I guess I just assumed that was obvious to anyone who's seen the two.  I haven't played Spyglass yet (it's another cheap one), but I was told that the scoring average for the pros at the AT&T is highest on Poppy, second on Spyglass, then lowest on Pebble.  Do you think Spyglass is tougher than Poppy?

And, you're right, it is very neat to play a tournament where you're thinking about trying to play well so you can get to play the course (at all or again) in addition to just wanting to play well.  The Carnegie Shield at Royal Dornoch is like that too.  I guess the difference here is you can think of it in terms of dollars given the outrageous prices, so I earned $900 worth of green fees at Pebble this week.  Pretty cool, but you're right that there's more to it than that ... it gives me good reasons to keep practicing.

As my wise father always reminds me, it's all about having fun out there and I sure did have fun this week ...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 11:38:08 AM by Andrew Biggadike »
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2006, 11:16:03 AM »
I would think that Poppy might be an interesting match play course.  The stretch of holes 9 through 12 have enough options, choices and risk/reward that a match could turn completely upside down.

 
"... and I liked the guy ..."

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2006, 11:27:25 AM »
The stretch of holes 9 through 12 have enough options, choices and risk/reward that a match could turn completely upside down.

There's no denying that.  This week I witnessed both birdies and doubles on 10 and 12, and heard stories of nines on both of those holes.  You can certainly play them both very aggressively, but I don't think it's worth the risk when it's so much safer to play for short wedges in to each green.

18 is a good finisher too.  The green is severe enough that it almost doesn't make sense to layup, leaving some really interesting up and down attempts.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2006, 11:30:20 AM »
Andrew:

Great stuff.  And your father is VERY wise.   ;)

Re Spyglass and Poppy:  yes, I think Spyglass is tougher.  Taking each from the tips, it's:

Poppy:  74.2     144  
Glass:  75.5     147

That seems right to me - Glass a stroke tougher.  It wouldn't surprise me though if the pros fare worse on Poppy... many just don't like the course and if adversely effects their play.

In any case, methinks you are going to see for yourself re the Glass soon enough, thanks to the NCGA.

 ;D

Stan Dodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2006, 12:56:50 PM »
Some thoughts from the caddie...
Andrew is a clas act and a very tidy player and a wonderful house guest.  
Joseph dropped a bomb on 14 or things may have been a bit different.
We got a great Pebble day with sun and then fogl, not much wind.
Andrew had great speed with the putter and always seems to be in control of his ball.
I hope I can get the loop in the Shield. ;D

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2006, 03:26:58 PM »
Joe Bramlett won his quarter-final match 5&4. So far, Andrew is the only one to have given him a match.

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Okay, so now that I've played Pebble twice...
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2006, 04:05:10 AM »
Okay, here are some of my thoughts on the back nine at Pebble.  Apologies if in places these sound too much like notes for how to play the holes, but I am hoping to get back out there in competition again in the coming years.

The left fairway bunkers on 10 seem like the perfect line, but they're within range and you really need to keep it right of them.  This makes the tee shot play narrower since you need to allow for the ball to run out to the right too.  A ball landing on the front will likely run out quite a bit, making shots to front hole locations interesting and a back left hole location tougher to get at (since the green opening is to the right and the green slopes left to right).  All in all this hole feels similar to nine but the elevation change and slope on the green is not as severe.

It's tough to pick the right line on the tee shot of 11.  There's so much room to the right but that leaves you with a bad angle in.  I saw at least one player in the trees/bushes left of the fairway, which would be the ideal angle if they weren't there.  Even with a very short iron into this hole (I hit PW both rounds), it's a tricky shot since the green is so shallow and balls landing on the front will kick off the downslope past the hole leaving a steep downhill putt.  This hole is a good birdie opportunity after the preceding three tough holes, but you can easily make bogey too.

12 hole gets killed any time someone talks about Pebble.  There isn't too much going on here but it does require a good solid long iron, something a lot of the other holes don't demand.  Over the green there is a steep dropoff and it looked like the worst place to miss the green.

The tee shot of 13 plays narrower than the width since you'll likely need to take it close to the right fairway bunkers given the significant right to left slope.  The green slopes hard from back to front and right to left, so keeping it short left of the hole is ideal.  Playing the conservative shot to the middle of the green, to let the slope bring the ball in, can easily leave you with a very tough putt if the ball doesn't come back as much as you hope.

I really had no idea what the right line was on 14 tee.  It turns out to be considerably right of what I guess from standing on the tee, and all the fairway bunkers look like they'll make for a very long third into the green.  I find the second shot a bit awkward -- which is good -- since you're hitting from a bit right of the target fairway with the slope falling away from you.  From this angle, playing for the slope means aiming close to or in the right rough, especially since it's better to approach the green from the right side of the fairway.  The green is very difficult since it's really only a small portion on the top left; shots from elsewhere (except perhaps putts from the back right portion of the green) mean dealing with large slopes up to the hole location.  Are hole locations on the right half of the green ever used?  This is a good challenging hole, with lots to think about on each shot.

15 seemed pretty straightforward to me.  The view off the tee is a bit obscured but there's not enough trouble out there for it to be offputting.  There are bunkers you can drive into but they can be avoided with proper club selection and still leave a relatively short shot into the green.  There is some bumpiness to the fairway which adds interest to the approach shot.  I was on a pretty significant downslope during my match that made me wonder whether I'd go long with a delofted iron, so I swung easy, didn't hit it that well, and came up well short.  I would imagine the toughest aspect of this hole for pros is controlling the spin on their approach shots.

I like 16.  There's plenty of width early in the fairway and it then bends to the right, narrows, and drops off at about 135 yards from the green.  One can play safely short out to the left with a long iron or fairway wood and leave a longer shot in, or play for the lower portion of the fairway with a driver taking a line that challenges the fairway bunker on the right.  I don't think it's worth it to go with driver.  The green slopes back right to front left, so miss to the left even though it looks safer on the right (especially now with all the trees that have been removed).

17 has essentially two greens and is a pretty damn intimidating shot.  The only place that feels like a routine up and down is short right of the green when the hole location is front right.  All other misses are playing shots where the green slopes away from you and will require a lot of skill (or luck) to keep the ball close to the hole.  The wind is also much more pronounced on this shot than the preceding set of holes, and it's likely the first time that you've had to seriously think about it since you started playing back in at 11.

I still don't know what the right way to play the 18 tee shot is.  Both times I took driver just left of the trees and it cut back; the first time I was sitting perfectly between the trees and right bunker and the second time I was behind a tree and had to start the ball in the ocean and cut it back.  Given that I'd almost assuredly layup on my second, I'm thinking the right play is a fairway wood to the right of the trees, short enough that you don't have to contend with them on your second.  That, then, would likely leave a tougher layup shot since you'll have to carry the bend in the fairway and the left fairway bunker (both of which are really well placed in the hole).  Or, maybe you just layup short of those too, and deal with the longer shot in.  In any event, I think the fact that the second shot has lots to think about because of the bend and fairway bunker jutting out gets overlooked on this hole.  I feel that how you plan to deal with those dictates the play off the tee, rather than the reverse.  That is, unless you are a tour pro and are long enough to not even think about them.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

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