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Brad Tufts

Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« on: June 20, 2006, 01:20:18 PM »
I had the pleasure of playing the Bethpage Black this past Sunday, as part of a truly US Open weekend.  A friend and I watched the open at WF on Sat., and played BB on Sunday afternoon.  The pace of play was abominable (5.5 hrs), as we played the last 3 holes in near-darkness, but what a golf course.

This 1-2 handicapper shot 80 on this par 71 from 7366 on the card (playing about 7200...76.6/144).  I think i could shave a couple on second playing, as there were a few tricky holes requiring some local knowledge.  I had birdies on 2, 7 (tees up to 490 par 5, down from 553), and 13, with double bogeys on 5 (leaked into the fescue), 6 (same) and 15 (wow).

The course is quite a test, with 7 par 4s in the 430-480 range (and 3 more from 410-430) and 3 of 4 par threes over 200.  The conditions are very good, as it seemed an open could be held with a couple days' growing of the rough and a cutting and rolling of the greens.  I drove the ball quite well for me, in the 260-290 range all day, hitting many of the fairways, but even drives of this length leave very, very difficult approaches to the tightly bunkered greens.  There were several holes where I thought I hit a great drive, only to be left with my 5th or 6th 3- or 4-iron approach of the day.  Numbers 5, 10, and 15 were the most tough, as 280-yd drives left 200+ remaining to elevated greens fronted by deep bunkers.  15 was especially difficult, as the green is probably 50 feet above the fairway on top of two 20 ft. deep bunkers, and the hole measures 478 from the back tee.

What struck me the most about the course was the "bigness" of everything.  The wide open spaces, the huge waste bunkers, and the large, flat greens.  The tree lines are pushed way back from the lines of play, leaving ample room to test your iron play.  The greens were flat, true, but with the undulations of a course like WFW, the Black would be close to unplayable.  The design definately gives a break on the greens in this way, although you have to convince yourself to play less break, sometimes more difficult than playing alot of break.  It seemed to me that the restoration preceding the open is still very evident, as the changes still haven't completely matured into timelessness.  

With the several newer courses I've seen that imitate the style (wide open, windswept, waste bunkers w/islands and fescue) and some that I've read about and seen pictures of, the Rees-stored bunkering does give the course a much newer look than I was expecting.  Honestly, not having seen the Black before the restoration, if someone told me the course was 5 years old, I wouldn't have had a hard time believing it.

Regardless, it is one of the most demanding courses I've ever played.  It is playable, but has a few shots that a good number of tour pros would have a tough time pulling off.  If measured aggression is undertaken, a low handicap player could get around in the mid-70s, but add US Open conditions, and good luck....
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 02:43:01 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Matt_Ward

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2006, 02:54:09 PM »
Brad:

Glad you could play the course -- unfortunately the pace of play is what keeps me from returning to the Black. The management needs to really ride herd on what is happening on that score because one cannot maintain anything close to concentration when the pace is so tortoise like.

Matt_Ward

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2006, 03:01:47 PM »
Bill:

The 18th hole in its entirety needs a different direction. This has been mentioned by me and others countless times. The Rees Jones effort was a tweak job that fails to bring the round at the Black to the conclusion it richly deserves.

It's far more than just the bunkering scheme or their appearance.

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2006, 03:04:27 PM »
I don't know about it being an eyesore, but it doesn't fit with the rest of the course, or have any real strategy.  I'd love to see it switched with 18 on the Red, which is a much better closer IMHO.

Brad Swanson

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2006, 03:19:20 PM »
   What are people's thoughts on the tree to the right of #8?  I hit a pretty good long iron shot to a right pin and the tree gobbled it up and spit it out at the top of the hill on the right :(.  (I tapped in for par after an all world recovery from a horrible lie).  That tree doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the course IMHO.
   I agree that Bethpage Black might be the BIGGEST course I have played (the corridors, land movement, and bunkers).  I'd love another crack at it when the greens weren't just punched as they were when I played it.  My 2-3 index at the time just missed breaking 80 as well from as far back as I could play em.

Cheers,
Brad

Brad Tufts

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2006, 03:38:11 PM »
I also thought that 18 was kind of an odd finisher.  First of all, the back tee obscures much of the landing area and bunkers.  Also, there is quite a bit of contrast between this fairway and #1 (traversing the same land).  #1's fairway is elegant in its simplicity, whereas #18 is bunkered with an unneeded flourish.  To fit the course, it needs a few flanking bunkers that are large, deep, some flashing, and a rolled upper lip.  This way, it would match #s 15-17.

As for the tree on 8, I don't think its horrible, but losing it wouldn't change the hole's characteristics much.

As to the pace of play, I think it was the several weed breaks the 4some two groups ahead took on their way around.... ::)
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Jay Flemma

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2006, 03:43:20 PM »
Can't you just fall in love with her the first time!  It was love at first sight for me.  I love getting up there at 4.5 on wkds and practicing till its time to go out.

Thank god tillie/whoever took it easy on the greens or it'd be a 6.5 hour round.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2006, 03:44:04 PM by Jay Flemma »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2006, 03:55:49 PM »
Nice Work Brad, beats my first trip around the Black. I found 6 to be a little tricky the first time as well. It is really hard to figure out where and what you want to hit. Good playing though, again.

Mike_Golden

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 04:39:42 PM »
6 is a layup hole-hit it short of the right side bunkers, leaving about a 150 yard shot-it plays about a club shorter than you think (even accounting for the downhill) and the green is not only small but very difficult to hold.

Matt_Ward

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 05:04:29 PM »
The problem with people connected to Bethpage is that they believe the 18th is OK as is.

They are in serious denial. No sane player (opps, maybe Phil !) will hit driver and challenge the "neck" bunker complex about 300 yards from the tee. They'll simply do what Tiger and others did -- hit iron or 3/4 metal and proceed from there.

I'd like to see them reconfigure the hole and make it a somewhat driveable par-4 -- then all sorts of possibilities would be available.

What's really disturbing is that the folks there opted to EXTEND the tee on #9. For the life of me I can't understand what was wrong with the hole previously.

In regards to the tree on #8 -- it only comes into play for those who are trying to hunt for the back right pin and push it a smidge. Keep this in mind -- as much as Rees gets bashed on this site -- I salute his effort at the 8th in extending the rear of the green and for inserting the rear bunker that guards the more aggressive play there.

P.S., Brad -- you are right about the scale of the place. Simply a marvelous trek when starting at the elevated 1st tee and seeing the water tower in the distance and knowing what lies ahead.

Put the greens at Winged Foot / West onto the Black and play for the non-affiliated golfer would never end. ;D

Mitch Hantman

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 06:21:44 PM »
I grew up playing the Black course, and saw it in its 1970's state.  It's amazing how much improved it now is in almost all facets.  However, #18 was a weak, anticlimactic finish back then, and it still leaves everyone disappointed.  It has gone through several iterations over the past 15 years or so, to improve the challenge and/or change the bunkering.  There was even a Principal's Nose complex done at one time down the left hand side! It was about 140 yards out, but it was also out of character.  

I wouldn't be averse to seeing a short, risk/reward drivable hole, as Matt suggests.  It would be a refreshing change of pace to an otherwise stern test, and could change the outcome of a match with scores ranging from 2 to 6 possible.  It needs to be done, preferably by Rees, just to keep it consistent throughout the course.  It looks out of place as is.  Most importantly, it would be FUN.

Martin Del Vecchio

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 09:38:22 AM »
Brad, there's only one question to ask:  did you hit a iron off the 18th tee?

And as for weed breaks, here is an etiquette question for you.  Years ago, I was playing at Beverly (Massachusetts) Golf & Tennis Club, the home of the 6-hour round.  During the inevitable pile-up on #3 tee (A 175-yard, straight up-hill, blind par 3), the two "dudes" I was paired with started toking up.  The question:  even though they easily detected that I was a "square", and wouldn't mellow out with them, should they not have offered me a toke anyway?

Phil Benedict

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2006, 02:00:27 PM »
On another thread Matt asked for impressions of Winged Foot.  Having seen them both on TV, I would take a round at the Black in a heartbeat over a round at Winged Foot.

Brad Tufts

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2006, 03:47:33 PM »
Martin....of course they should have...they definately could have been accused of Bogarting....perhaps a two-shot penalty and a replacing of the bud would have been in order. :)

I didn't hit iron off the 18th, I hit driver, but a tentative one as it was too dark to see the ballflight after it passed the front tee.  Even with a good 3w from me, i still would have had 175 straight uphill to the shelf green (playing 190ish), and I was hitting my driver straight until it got dark.  For the pros however, there is no reason not to club down there, as they hit shots way up in the air even with their long irons so they wouldn't be concerned about having the extra distance left.

As for 6, there is nothing to look at from that tee, perhaps the narrowest fairway on the course at driver length, but much wider back at 3/4 metal length.

And 9, the tees were not back at the newest back tee, and it was quite a poke to get a drive on top of the ridge on the left side of the fairway.  Both of our drives were about half way up the hill, about 170 from the green, but playing more into the wind and 15 ft. uphill.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 03:50:30 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Brad Swanson

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 04:26:48 PM »
This thread brings back memories of my only trip around Bethpage Black.  The cast of characters in my group was like something straight out of a Woody Allen movie.  One guy was a retired horseracing jockey whose vocabulary and cursing was quintessential New Yawk!  Poor shots produced such profound phrases as "Aww, ya sista's tit!", and the exclaimation "Gaff Channel!!!" followed nearly every quality shot.  I think 2 hours of the 6 hour round were spent looking for this gentleman's ball.  One of the others was a spitting image of Seinfeld's Uncle Leo, and had the same mannerisms.  For some stupid reason, I actually listened to some of this guy's completely convoluted course management strategies since it was my fist trip around the course (and I was sleep deprived after my drive from Southampton at 4:00 in the morning after 36 holes the day before to get in the que for a wrist band).  I sure would like another crack at the Black, but I would certainly cite the slug-lke pace as a strike against it.

Cheers,
Brad

Martin Del Vecchio

Re:Oh-oh Bethpage Black Betty...
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 04:57:25 PM »
One of the others was a spitting image of Seinfeld's Uncle Leo, and had the same mannerisms.

Don't forget that Uncle Leo's son Jeffrey works for the Parks Department...

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