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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« on: June 19, 2006, 11:18:24 AM »
First, I've never liked par 5's where the 2nd shot for most people is a short iron layup.  This is my problem with #'s 13 and 15 at Augusta from the members tee markers.  Great holes for The Masters but Driver + 8 iron + wedge for most folks.

Second, I don't like any hole where the landing area for the longer hitters is bigger/wider than for normal or shorter hitters.

Finally, while WF has done a great job in recent years of getting rid of overhanging trees from the fairway, a decent tee shot on #12 still leaves a "normal" hitter with a blocked line on his 2nd shot.  That, folks, is what Stupid Trees do.

Still a great golf course, though.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 11:24:11 AM »
 Chip,


    I think it would have been much more fun if it were shorter.  I love the two tier fairway landing area ( one of the few fairways with something going on!). I don't share your tree concern but could be convinced with some good arguments.
AKA Mayday

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 02:17:05 PM »
I am assuming this thread is in the context of normal play. Explain to me, after you've successfully hit a drive into the fairway on #12 what do those trees block you from doing?

p.s. Mayday, did you see any doglegs on TV this weekend? ;D

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2006, 02:19:31 PM »
 Jim,

   If you call them "chicken legs " then "yes".
AKA Mayday

Phil_the_Author

Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 04:37:17 PM »
Chip, you wrote, "First, I've never liked par 5's where the 2nd shot for most people is a short iron layup... Second, I don't like any hole where the landing area for the longer hitters is bigger/wider than for normal or shorter hitters... Finally, while WF has done a great job in recent years of getting rid of overhanging trees from the fairway, a decent tee shot on #12 still leaves a "normal" hitter with a blocked line on his 2nd shot.  That, folks, is what Stupid Trees do."

I think that you are looking at the hole through today's eyes rather than the eyes of the man who designed it in the 20's.

It was originally a 497-yard par five, with the tee being actually just right of where todays fairway line begins. The landing area for the average player or one who chose to lay-up was in between the two right side fairway bunkers. The shots played to them would have been from a stance in among the three "capes" and would have been difficult to that location, especially as the land slopes down into it, made more so by the lower trajectories hit then.

Anyone who felt strong enough or who had hit a long enough drive could go for it in two, as both Espinoza and Jones did during the '29 Open.

It was a tremendous risk/reward 2 & 1/2 shotter back then. Hole lengthening caused by technology is what has brought the trees along the left side into play, and not the design characterisitics of the hole.

Actually, I think they are a good answer to the technology, especially when the hole plays forward in the 550-570 range as it did in the Open.

Basically, here is a hole that suffers because of technology... if it suffers at all.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 04:39:51 PM by Philip Young »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2006, 04:38:25 PM »
Bill,

If you are going to argue that courses should be presented so that higher handicappers have free reign to hit their "only" shot on every hole we have a disagreement. I am as anti-tree as the next guy but removing them so that a 20 handicapper can take a direct line to the green from 200+ yards out is unacceptable. There are probably a dozen valid reasons for removing any (and every) tree on a golf course, but to make it easier for the 20 to cut dogleg corners cannot be on the list. Can it? ???

We can break down that particular hole, or the principal in general, but if the 20 drives to the right half of the fairway, can he negotiate his second shot in hopes of reaching the green in three without hitting the tree, and while staying in the fairway?

Matt_Ward

Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2006, 07:51:57 PM »
Chip:

At 640 I say the hole is a bore irrespective of the green contours because the 3rd is likely a very short iron.

Play the hole at 550-570 yards and the option element comes to the surface in a big time way -- especially when the prevailing SW winds blow.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2006, 10:07:47 PM »
There's nothing much about this hole or this course that meets my fancy. I found this course boring to watch on tv, boring to look at, and just not my type of course in general.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2006, 10:34:12 PM »
Chipoat,

Let's disect the hole and your dislikes.

Do you like the green and its surrounds ?

Do you like the LZ for the drive ?

How would you characterize the 2nd shot LZ with the bunker and rolling terrain ?

Do you think the trees on the left provide an adequate safety barrier for errant drives hit off the 13th tee ?

P.S.   Will you be playing in the NGLA singles later this week ?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 10:34:59 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:I still don't like the 12th hole at Winged Foot
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 02:12:43 PM »
Matt Ward:

But they didn't play it from 550-570 yards - they played it from 640 yards.  And at 550-570, you and I encounter the same issues I mentioned.

Patrick:

Yes, I like the green and its' surrounds although it seems more designed for a possible 220+ shot than a 120+ shot (which sort of supports my point, I think).

It's the second shot I don't like which is mostly a function of the trees in the left rough that block any shot from the left 1/3-1/2 of the fairway.

The longer hitter has the ability to get past those trees so their effective landing zone is wider.  I don't care for that anywhere - not just on this particular hole.

Yes, I will be at National this week.  Will you?

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