Charles River: Why not on any top 100 lists?

[cary lichtenstein]

I played Charles River yesterday, and wow, this course rocks.

One wonderful hole after another, and yet I wake up this morning, and am compelled to ask the question:

Why is Charles River not on anybody's top 100 list?

It would definitely be on mine, so please, with such great topography, such a variety of holes, Donald Ross as the architect, great greens, would the Treehouse tell me what I am missing?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Why is Charles River not on anybody's top 100 list?

It would definitely be on mine, so please, with such great topography, such a variety of holes, Donald Ross as the architect, great greens, would the Treehouse tell me what I am missing?

I have not played Charles River yet. However, the President of CR prefers Winchester. With so much Ross in New England, it may get a little lost. With something like 97% of the members being Boston College graduates, I am sure the Tap Room at Charles River is Top 10.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

It could be because of the limited season and difficulty in bringing the course to its optimal playing condition (read, maintainance meld)

[ForkaB]

I agree with Mike.  Charles River is a very good Ross golf course but just one of several very good Ross golf courses in the immediate area.  None of them have any significant blueblood or past USGA or PGAT histories, so they are all ignored in favor of those who have.

Pat

By your "limited season" criterion, netiher Sand HIlls nor Augusta should ever crack any Top 100......

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

It has stayed completely under the radar; after all, it is not near an ocean.  It wasn't even on the GOLF Magazine ballot when I was in charge of those rankings ten years ago, because no one had nominated it as worthy.  I suspect that only one or two of the 100 panelists on the GOLF Magazine ranking have played it, and you are the first person I've heard that said it was that good, so I've never gone to see it.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

Go see it when you are in the area. All 18 holes are completely different. The routing is masterful. Lots of strategy. Ross was even a paying member there.

Wonderful greens, it has all the elements. If it is under the radar, its time to make its formal appearance as a top course.

Cary

[Brad Klein]

Probably because there are only 100 courses on the list! Seriously, Charles River is one of a number of very impressive layouts that has a quiet reputation, overshadowed by its neighbor, The Country Club, and by nearby Ross gems like Salem and Essex County Club. Still, 34 of our raters have voted it and it's close to scaring the top-100 Classic. The routing is a little fragmented, esp. on the back nine. And the club didn't help itself (last I remember) with some distant tinkering on the 15th and 16th holes. But it is very impressive hole-by-hole, esp. 11-14.

[cary lichtenstein]

Brad:

In looking over your list of 100 best classics, I would put it in the 2nd 25, bwtweeen 25 and 50. I counted a number of courses, which I will not mention, in that section that I thought Charles River was better than.

Get your raters to Boston, wonderful golf here.

Cary

[Glenn Spencer]

The course looks so good in the write-up section. I can completely see what you are talking about. Honestly, I thought it looked like on of the greatest courses in that section. I would love to play here and I would be surprised if I didn't like it better than something like Double Eagle, but that is just me.

[DTaylor18]

Charles River is without a doubt one of my favorite courses in MA.  It has a wide variety of holes and is a course that can easily be walked.  The greens there are great, one of the courses biggest strengths.  The only negative that I have heard was form a big hitting low handicapper who felt that the course wasn't challenging enough from the back.  It is wihtout a doubt in my top 100.  I think it suffers from, as mentioned above, there being a lot of good Ross in the area.  Winchester, Worcester, Brae Burn, the Orchards, and Essex , just to name some.In fact, all of these courses are a treat and would probably be much more highly acclaimed on their own.  I think most on this board would thoroughly enjoy Charles River and I highly recommend it to all, regardless of its ranking.  Playing with Dave makes it even more fun!  

[Michael Moore]

Cary -

What are you missing? If you had the privilege of playing Charles River and delighted in the routing, greens, and variety, then you are not missing anything.

Within 100 miles of Newton are

Salem
Winchester
Essex County
Brae Burn
Worcester
Longmeadow
Wannamoissett
Oyster Harbor
Hyannisport
Rhode Island CC
Point Judith
Misquamicut
Plymouth

And some others . . .

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

While Sand Hills and ANGC have limited seasons, they're in good shape during those seasons.  Such is not the case with Charles River which doesn't "arrive" until later in the season.

[John_Conley]

Why is Charles River not on anybody's top 100 list?

There is a lot of great golf in Massachusetts.  It is hard to stand out.

[Mark_F]

Brad Klein,

What does "the routing is a little fragmented" mean please?

[ForkaB]

Rich Goodale,

While Sand Hills and ANGC have limited seasons, they're in good shape during those seasons.  Such is not the case with Charles River which doesn't "arrive" until later in the season.

That's a bizarre statement, Pat.  I've spent a fair amount of my life around Boston, and never knew that Newton had its own microclimate.  Also, if Cary thinks the place rocks in mid-June, I wonder what he'd say if he played it when it had "arrived" sometime late the year!  Top ten, maybe?

[Brad Tufts]

The River (as affectionately known in Boston) is a great layout, one that I had the chance to finally see about a month ago.  I unfortunately played it only two days after aeration, so I didn't get the full effect of the greens, which would be the highlight.

It's certainly a "give and take" course in that you have to make birdies on the easier holes due to the fact that you will make the inevitable # of bogeys.  I think technology takes away some of the challenge at CR, as a couple of holes can now be overpowered (#12, you can hit it all the way to the bottom, 70 yds from the green, beyond the funky lies, #15 especially, as a 260+ drive can now roll down the hill, so you can have a short iron into this par 5 in 2)

Despite this, you have to be on your game to par holes like #5(uphill 4 with steep back to front green), #11 (245ish par 3), #17 (190 with two shallow tiers), and 18 (long 4).

As for it being top 100 classic material?  If Essex CC is in the second half of the top 100, then CR might barely miss out.  I believe Essex is a slight step above.

Also, I believe a bit of the "climate" issues could be due to the fact that much of the course seems to be built on ledge rock, which creates the odd bare spot or poor-draining low area.  Maybe our GCA green section can correct me here.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I played in the USGA State team championships at Charles River and have to agree with Brad that the routing is a little awkward.
It has some great holes with some very severe greens, but in my opinion it also has about 4 or 5 very ordinary holes..the exact routing slips my mind...which in itself is not a good sign!

I do remember a par 4 on the backside, a dogleg to the right at about 450 yards that was simply awesome, a great set of par threes...bar one...., and pretty good par fives, which use elevation change to the max.

I really did not like the ultra long par 3 on the front..number 5 or something.

The greens were magnificent and a super test..I liked the course very much, but it would be a stretch to put it into the top 100..IMHO.

[Ed_Baker]

Cary,

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself on Saturday.

It's always a pleasure to play with one of the treehouse gang.

Interesting comments from the guys, especially about the routing, when Ran played it he was amazed at how Ross got great golf out of the 12 through 14 stretch, he felt that the routing could have deteriorated there but Ross was successful in creating the most interesting holes he could have. Not much we can do about crossing streets to play some holes, the city of Newton was there before we were.

The par 5 15th is the only bastard left from an otherwise successful restoration, I am still beating the drum loud to put the cliff back on 15 but with every year that passes fewer and fewer members remember the original hole. Now granted with technology, restoring the cliff would result in a lay up off the tee but it would also put back a great risk reward shot of anywhere from 235 to 255 yards from a level lie. The "bobsled" fairway with containment mounds that the 1978 Green committee put in when they removed the cliff is the most Un-Ross like element I've ever seen on an otherwise authentic Ross track.

At any rate it's still ablast to play everyday and the waiting list is about 10 years, so I guess we are doing a few things right.

[Scott Coan]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but the Massachusetts Open Championship is being held there this week.  After todays first round, only 6 players broke par out of 150 entrants.

http://www.mgalinks.org/

Notable champions of past years include Donald Ross, Walter Hagen, Francis Ouimet, Gene Sarazen, Byron Nelson and Bob Toski.

[Ed_Baker]

Scott,

And that was with the "easier" pin placements, if it stays dry the scores will rise.

Ed

[SPDB]

Is that picture on the Mass Golf Assn. frontpage from Ran's writeup?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

While Sand Hills and ANGC have limited seasons, they're in good shape during those seasons.  Such is not the case with Charles River which doesn't "arrive" until later in the season.

That's a bizarre statement, Pat.  I've spent a fair amount of my life around Boston, and never knew that Newton had its own microclimate.  Also, if Cary thinks the place rocks in mid-June, I wonder what he'd say if he played it when it had "arrived" sometime late the year!  Top ten, maybe?

Perhaps you were in Boston before all of the trees grew, blocking out sunlight and air circulation.

I wouldn't categorize CRC as a reaching its peak condition in spring or early summer

Cary's from Florida where the greens putt at 4 on the stimp on June.

[John_Conley]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but the Massachusetts Open Championship is being held there this week.  After todays first round, only 6 players broke par out of 150 entrants.

From what I see only five players broke par.  I have a friend up there that turned it in the red and is now on the other side of the par line.  We'll see how it holds up.  I've always heard great things about Charles River.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Micahel W-P,

Sounds like you played with the nines reversed.

Is that picture on the Mass Golf Assn. frontpage from Ran's writeup?

Yup.


Here's the terrific 11-14 stretch:

#11 240ish par 3:


#12 blind tee shot, par 4:


approach:


#13 approach, par 4:


#14, par 3:

[Scott Coan]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this but the Massachusetts Open Championship is being held there this week.  After todays first round, only 6 players broke par out of 150 entrants.

From what I see only five players broke par.  I have a friend up there that turned it in the red and is now on the other side of the par line.  We'll see how it holds up.  I've always heard great things about Charles River.

John, when I looked there were 6 in the red.  Looks like they have changed Rodney Butcher's score to E from -1 on the scoreboard, but the following still shows him as -1...

Newton Centre, MA – Michael Welch (Quincy, MA) is certainly enjoying his time back in the Bay State. The two-time New England Amateur champion turned professional posted an impressive 3-under par 67 this morning to jump out to a one-stroke lead following the first round of the Massachusetts Open Championship, which is being held this week at Charles River Country Club in Newton Centre.

Standing one shot back of Welch and leading the way for the amateurs was Doug Clapp (Walpole CC), who turned in a score of 2-under par 68. Highlighting Clapp's round was his first nine holes as he – after starting on the 10th tee – made the turn at 4-under par 33. On that nine, Clapp posted three birdies, an eagle on the 536-yard, par 5 16th hole, and one bogey. At one point Clapp was at 5-under par but a bogey, double- bogey finish dropped him to 2-over par 37 through his final nine holes. Four professionals – Matthew Donovan (CC of Pittsfield ), Michael Harris (Shorewood, WI), Josh Hillman (Taconic GC) and Rodney Butcher (New Port Richey, FL) – are two strokes back with scores of 1-under par 69.