Does the club make the man...

[John Kavanaugh]

Why would you be so defensive and care what others, even on GCA thinks about your course if you enjoy it and you have friendly games and competitions?  Victoria National is a terrific golf course that most would kill (figuratively) to play regularly.

Why does anyone care about sterotypes of any type if they know in their heart they are a good man.  I have no complaints about peoples perception of Victoria National as an individual course...My complaints are about the blanket comments about Fazio courses that are perceived as truth when I know for a fact they are simply posturing lies.  Aren't most sterotypes founded in stupidity...or is that just being politically correct.

btw to all...Thanks for all the nice comments in the posts above...I simply could not respond last night as my mouth was agape..I played the local Doak yesterday and like it more everytime.  One thing that I do find sad is because of the lies spread about Fazio on this board I will never get to "know" him or his associates like I "know" Doak...That is a loss for all of us..

bbtw..Lie sounds like a strong word but if something isn't the truth I'm not sure what else to call it...maybe misinformation would be easier on the eyes..Please don't bother with interpretations of what is in his book...the proof is in the ground.

[ForkaB]

John et. al.

All of us who are disciples of Sir Bob Huntley know that manners maketh the man.

Clubs which are mannerly choose members who are also so, and so on in a virtuous circle.  Clubs who do not understand or respect manners, on or off the golf course, are doomed to the members that they will attract.

[Bill_McBride]

John Kavanaugh, there was a bit of talk about "assholes" above.  Please keep in mind that opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.  It may not agree with your opinion, but that's no reason to hurl around words like "lies."  It's all just opinions.  I particularly respect people who back up their opinions with some degree of logic and support of their positions rather than vague generalities and stereotypes.  

[jg7236]

If it is a all Men's Club and no women are around......

[George Pazin]

Maybe some of those "lies" would evaporate if someone from Fazio's organization contributed.

(I second Bill McBride's comment about "lies", btw.)

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe some of those "lies" would evaporate if someone from Fazio's organization contributed.

(I second Bill McBride's comment about "lies", btw.)

Does anyone (and I'm including this board) believe with 14 courses in the GolfWeek top 100 modern that Fazio builds non strategic courses....Even I give the raters more credit than that.  George, I'm sorry if you think this board would give an architect favored reviews just because they contribute to this site....tell me it ain't so..

[DMoriarty]

Bob Crosby posts a thoughtful take on Fazio's design philosophy.  His impressions are almost entirely consistent with Fazio's own description of his own design philosophy as set forth in his own book.  

Meanwhile, in his usual colorful language, Tommy proclaims he doesnt like Fazio's work, thinks it is too expensive and ultimately bad for golf.  He also exaggerates and overgeneralizes about insecure assholes who think that cost always correlates with quality.  

This is what has you so self-righteous and offended?  Is it possible that you are taking this this Fazio stuff a bit too personally?  

If the proof is truly in the ground and you dont care what Tom Fazio himself thinks about his own courses, then why on Earth do you care what Tommy and Bob Crosby think?  

[James Bennett]

I haven't seen a Fazio course, so can't comment on a key aspect of this thread, but...

One thing I saw that impressed me on my recent sojourn OS was at Deal (Royal Cinque Ports for those more upwardly mobile).  I played on a Sunday, in a two as you do (they are very concerned about slow play, with 3 hours about the limit) and had a great day (thanks Tony).  In the mid-afternoon, another batch of golfers commenced.  They were 'the artisans'.  A different category to the members, I think they were locals who supplied services or voluntary labour or something to the Club, and played at certain times for more favourable membership prices.  

It warmed my heart to see a regal Club that had worked out a way to be socially inclusive to a degree to allow more of the local community access to a valued facility.

The other place that I saw such 'engagement' across the socio-economic spectrum was at Pacific Grove, but that is another story.

James B

[ForkaB]

Good point, James.  Swinley Forest and many other courses have associated "Artisan" clubs too.

However, the ideal club, IMVHO, has one class of membership which includes the artisans, the "country" members and the local gentry, men and women alike.  In such cases, the gentry provide a backbone of manners, the country members add the spice of diversity and the local artisans are the custodians of the club and the game.

[Chris Kane]

However, the ideal club, IMVHO, has one class of membership which includes the artisans, the "country" members and the local gentry, men and women alike.  In such cases, the gentry provide a backbone of manners, the country members add the spice of diversity and the local artisans are the custodians of the club and the game.

From what I've read that describes Royal Dornoch Rich...?

[ForkaB]

Yes, Chris--ideally and even some times in practice!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Good point, James.  Swinley Forest and many other courses have associated "Artisan" clubs too.

However, the ideal club, IMVHO, has one class of membership which includes the artisans, the "country" members and the local gentry, men and women alike.  In such cases, the gentry provide a backbone of manners, the country members add the spice of diversity and the local artisans are the custodians of the club and the game.

But as you well know, newer clubs can't due this as the infrastructure has to be paid for, and economics prevail. Thus, I will make my pitch here: If Sebonack wants to do something unique in American golf, they should create a small Artisans membership for the local cops, firemen..... They could limit the play of the Artisans to the shoulder seasons.

[ForkaB]

Good point, Mike

But why limit it to Sebonack?  Why not also Friars Head and Shinnecock and NGLA?

And why limit the artisans to cops and firemen?  How about local dentists and their nubile dental assitants too?

[Gene Greco]

Good point, Mike

But why limit it to Sebonack?  Why not also Friars Head and Shinnecock and NGLA?

And why limit the artisans to cops and firemen?  How about local dentists and their nubile dental assitants too?

  Ah, yes. Having the lasses frolic about would add a bit of beauty to that seemingly endless sea of shaggy bunkers, now, wouldn't it Rich?  

[ForkaB]

Gene

That conjunction of "nubile dental assistants" and "shaggy bunkers" makes me blush, even at my advanced age.....

[Gene Greco]

Rich:

      Yer gittin' ahead a yerself.

       Mind ya, I believe this is whut Ol' Mike Cirba was alooodin' tooo abow cha in thuther thrid.

       

[George Pazin]

Maybe some of those "lies" would evaporate if someone from Fazio's organization contributed.

(I second Bill McBride's comment about "lies", btw.)

Does anyone (and I'm including this board) believe with 14 courses in the GolfWeek top 100 modern that Fazio builds non strategic courses....Even I give the raters more credit than that.  George, I'm sorry if you think this board would give an architect favored reviews just because they contribute to this site....tell me it ain't so..

I didn't say favored reviews, I simply meant that if someone from Fazio's organization were to post, I think he would be treated well by the vast majority of posters.

[BCrosby]

John K -

I'm like a lot of people. I don't respond well to being called a liar.

I suppose that's the way you and your fellow members talk at your clubs, but let's try to find a more civil way to carry on discussions at GCA.

Thanks.

Bob

(As best I can recall, my mother was the last one to accuse me of lying. But in that case, she had found my half empty bottle of bourbon under the front seat of the family car. So I was nailed. With great shame I retracted my previous denials and confessed to having been out drinking the night before. Now, some 35 years on, she's still mad at me about that incident. I can't get her to crack a smile.)

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

I wasn't comfortable with the word lie either...so you may have noticed I said misinformation may be a more acceptable term.  If you met 20 Irishmen who were all drunks would it be a lie to say all Irishmen are drunks when you have a perfectly sober Irishman you have never met telling you he doesn't drink...Or would you just be spreading misinformation...It is kind of splitting hairs..

[BCrosby]

John K -

I'm like a lot of people. I don't respond well when I am accused of spreading misinformation.

I suppose that's the way you and your fellow members talk at your clubs, but let's try to find a more civil way to carry on discussions at GCA.

Thanks.

Bob

[George Pazin]

If you met 20 Irishmen who were all drunks would it be a lie to say all Irishmen are drunks when you have a perfectly sober Irishman you have never met telling you he doesn't drink...Or would you just be spreading misinformation...It is kind of splitting hairs..

I'd call that a highly speculative generalization that I wouldn't put much stock in.

In other words, just plain BS.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob and George...

If I know for a fact the following is not true...what does that make it..How many people that join and or enjoy Fazio courses do you think actually do so because the trickery of the architecture makes them feel good about themselves.  How many great courses does Fazio need to build before he and the members who join are not seen as architectural simpletons...How many people of any given race, profession or religion have to make notable contributions to society before you lump them all in given hate based stereotypes.  How is the generalization found below any different than when Eckstein generalized about many of our architect friends on this site.  There is some truth in what both Eckstein and Bob say as there probably is in most sterotypes...but are sterotypes ever a foundation for a civil discussion like you two seem to desire.

The following I promised above..

Put differently, Fazio uses hazards to guide the player through the course. Hazards are simple danger signs, players are given lots of room to avoid them and - this is the genius part - by hitting away from the hazard you get an easier approach shot.

That would normally be considered boring, insipid architecture. But Fazio pulls it off because of his remarkable eye for beautiful routings and landscapes combined with a knack for making holes look harder than they are. The two aren't unrelated. No one fakes a great hole better. That's not a minor talent.

I guess where I come out is that Fazio is sui generis. He is different without appearing so. He has stepped outside the usual gca bloodlines. His stuff is not penal, it's not strategic, it's not heroic. His courses look like they embody those things but the teeth are missing. I think a big part of Fazio's appeal to the average member is that after you play his courses a couple of times, they won't intimidate you. As if by magic they will lure you into thinking that you are a better golfer than you really are.  People feel good about themselves in the bar after the round.

[BCrosby]

John K -

Let's see. You've accused me of lying. Next you accused of me spreading misinformation. Now you accuse me of being uncivil. Wow. What's next? Running yellow lights?

I stand by what I wrote about Fazio. It's a fair summary of my thoughts about his work. I don't think Fazio would disagree with much of it, at least based on the book he wrote. Sounds like you feel differently. Let's not take it so personally.

Bob

[George Pazin]

John, how can you possibly say that Bob wrote that knowing it wasn't true?

Bob is one of the few posters on here that is meticulous in documenting facts and is very thoughtful in posting his opinions.

Just because you disagree with his analysis doesn't make it a lie. Maybe you played different courses. Maybe you missed what he observed, maybe he missed what you have observed.

Disagreement over a subjective topic, particularly when someone is generalizing, can almost never be a lie, simply by definition.

As for the folks joining Fazio's course, my hat is off to them. I don't think for a second they are joining because they agree that Fazio is playing some sort of trick on everyone and they're in on it. I think they enjoy the club and enjoy the course. A good friend of mine just joined a Fazio course and I have already called him to congratulate him (and no, it wasn't because I'm seeking access). I don't see any problem with people joining high priced Fazio clubs and I don't think it's bad for golf.

I do think it's somewhat comical that you are placing so much stock in one of Tommy's rants.

[John Kavanaugh]

Fine...If this anti-strategy ego stroking architectual theory is true...Please name what courses designed by Fazio in the GolfWeek top 100 fit the model.

Honestly...We don't talk much about second tier courses on this site enough to make them relevant in generalizations about a leading architect.  It would be like me pigeon holeing Doak on Quail Crossing.  (Which is one hell of a value with the new clubhouse and current fine conditioning.)