Bethpage.... Still a Tillinghast course?

[Noel Freeman]

Tom Mac, Phil, Pat---

There are several boulder piles (which Pat is alluding to on the course).. There is a big one on hole #12- (short par 4) on the right and a very big one on the left of #13 where balls can often land--this one is danger of being replaced by a fairway bunker if some at Alpine get their will..  The right to left cant of the fairway can land you on the rock pile which is grass covered but renders your second shot as a layup on what is the 2nd hardest hole (478 par 4)..

Tom- the original plans I believe say 1928 but I have to recheck it.  There is a shot HE Worden drew them, I have no proof that Tillie did it, he didnt sign it.  But as I stated in that Golf Illustrated article Tillie is standing on #2 green.  He had to be there often, it was too close to home.  Phil Young also has a great story regarding the Ku Klux Klan, Tillinghast and Alpine.. I'll let him tell it if he chooses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
William Rice Hochster was one of the founders of QR and he ran the club for many years (he was president of the club from 1916-1928 and chairman of the green committee until he died in 1933), in fact he had home adjacent to the course. He was more or less the dictator of QR.

He expanded the course in 1926 (which has been erroneously credited to Tilly) adding the current 3rd, 12th and 13th, and remodeling #2 and #4. He made a lot of little changes over the years, mostly changing (he favored a more irregular outline) and adding bunkers.  

Tom,

Thanks for the info!

When was Tilly at QR?  The timeline I have is the oft-stated one of Dunn in 1915 and Tilly in 1926.  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey
The changes that are chronicled in that book were not due to club's tennis requirements, the changes were made because the course did not stand up to its neighbors Century, Fenway and Winged Foot. It was only 6000 yards long. After Hochster (and Winton the greenkeeper) made their changes the course was expanded to 6600-6700 yards.

Tom

This is from "Lost Links" by Daniel Wexler - page 217 - Regarding Quaker Ridge -

"Gone were the short, Redan-like second (eventually turned into tennis courts), the tiny 12th and the uphill 13th. Substantially changed were the fine 3rd (today's second) and fourth, plus the extremely difficult two-shot 14th (presently mid length par 5).  The current 3rd, 12th, and 13th bear no connection to Tillinghast whatsoever, nor, as the drawings illustrate, does the style of Rees Jone's reconfigured bunkering."

I can't conclude either way if eventually turned into tennis courts means the changes took future courts into consideration or not. There is no mention here of radical changes to 14 holes and thus the style of greens on the vast majority of the course and certainly their relationship to fairway elevations has not been altered from Tillinghast's plans.

[T_MacWood]

Mike
Tilly was hired by QR in 1916, the course was ready the following year.

Geoffrey
The 14th was still intact during the Hochster era...it was 452 yard par-5 in the early 30's. It was another of Tilly's great Sahara long holes. My guess is RTJ or Rees are responsible for defacing this hole.

Lees and Low were heavyweights in the Metro golf scene. It was a brilliant move for Tilly from Philly to attach their names to his up coming design career. Low was a very well respected pro (I'm certain he helped get many of those early jobs in NJ & NY, including Baltusrol where he was the pro) and he eventually teamed with Herbert Strong in the 20s (another damn good architect). And Lees was an extremely talented turf and constuction man, arguably the best man in the world - at the time - in either capacity.

Its difficult to say why his style or their style in those early years (1915-1919) was what it was, and who influenced who (with exception of the mounding, which Lees was famous for from Mid Surrey). All you can say is his early courses had a distinctive style and frankly I love it. Somerset Hills is one of my favorite courses.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey
Lees and Low were heavyweights in the Metro golf scene. It was a brilliant move for Tilly from Philly to attach their names to his up coming design career. Low was a very well respected pro (I'm certain he helped get many of those early jobs in NJ & NY, including Baltusrol where he was the pro) and he eventually teamed with Herbert Strong in the 20s (another damn good architect). And Lees was an extremely talented turf and constuction man, arguably the best man in the world - at the time - in either capacity.

Its difficult to say why his style or their style in those early years (1915-1919) was what it was, and who influenced who (with exception of the mounding, which Lees was famous for from Mid Surrey). All you can say is his early courses had a distinctive style and frankly I love it. Somerset Hills is one of my favorite courses.

Interesting - re: Lees and Low-  Do you have any written accounts by Tillinghast where he credits them for any design concepts?  He did so in part at least for Burbeck so he was not averse to giving credit.

One thing we TOTALLY agree about is Somerset Hills!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood & Geoffrey Childs,

It's interesting that you agree upon Somerset Hills.

I know many individuals, whose opinions I respect that have mixed reviews on SH.

Some are critical of the weak finish.
I've always advocated switching the nines as I think the finishing four holes are a challenge.

Others are critical of the severe doglegs, such as # 1, # 6,
# 9, # 10 and # 11.

Still others are critical of what they consider weak holes, such as # 6, # 10, # 14, # 17 and # 18.

Some are critical of internal out of bounds, such as on # 9.

Others are critical of the safety problem on # 1 and # 9.

Others are critical about the long standing condition of the golf course.

Most are in agreement on the green complexes, they are outstanding.

What about the course do you find so appealing ?

Do you consider it above Ridgewood ?
Hollywood ?
Mt Ridge ?
Plainfield ?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Pat

When I finished 18 I wanted to go right to the first tee  

Seriously, it is a favorite for several truly memorable and great holes as well as 18 great greens and greens surrounds.

Since you want rankings   I would absolutely put Plainfield and Hollywood ahead of SH and Mountain Ridge well behind. I'd like to see Ridgewood again before making a decision since much work has been done there since my last visit.

[T_MacWood]

Geoffrey
Tilly was one of the most prolific writers in golf, but you'll be hard pressed to find him crediting anyone for anything he did architecturally. He did acknowledge Taylor & Lees as the creators of Alpinization at Mid Surrey.

Pat
If I was forced to choose one course to play the rest of life - from the courses you listed - I would choose Somerset Hills without hesititation. Idyllic.