Riverdale Dunes--Conditioning

[Tim Pitner]

Yesterday, I played Riverdale Dunes, a very good course in the Denver area designed by Pete Dye (with Perry Dye and Tom Doak).  I really enjoy the course, but was troubled by the conditioning.  The course was absolutely saturated.  The fairways were wet, the greens were wet, even the native grass rough was wet.  

Obviously, firm and fast it was not.  I would have settled for neutral.  The fairways were so wet that it felt like a humid, midwestern summer day.  We don't normally do humidity in Colorado.  And the native grass was so long and sticky that it was unplayable.  Hitting in there was an automatic lost ball.  Now, playing from the hay is always going to be difficult but yesterday was impossible.  To make matters worse, they were further watering the course as we played it.  

I don't know much about grasses and conditioning.  Is the superintendent/club making a mistake, or is there some reason why you'd want to totally saturate the grass in early June?  I believe the fairways and greens at Riverdale are bent grass--is this the source of the problem?  I once read a quote from the Riverdale head pro saying he prefers the course in the winter when it plays firm and fast--well, perhaps they could make some changes to approximate those conditions in the spring/summer.  

[Doug Wright]

Tim,

I'm wondering if it isn't the bent grass that they're trying to keep green, especially in these 90+ degree days we've had the last couple of weeks. I've had the same experience out there at Riverdale, and in the past Meridian GC south of town--another bent grass course--had the same overwatering going on.

Did you play early in the morning? If so it might be better later in the day.

I really like Riverdale Dunes (except for the horrid 18th hole), and agree with the pro that it's a great course when the water's turned off. In the winter it plays like some UK courses.

[Tim Pitner]

Doug,

We teed off around 6:45, so it was early and you're probably right that it would improve as the day went along.  I wonder whether bent grass is really that suitable for Riverdale Dunes if it's correct that they have to saturate it to keep it green.  The overwatering certainly made it unpleasant to play in some respects (especially the moisture rising up from the ground and the wet rough).  I love Riverdale, particularly in the fall and winter, but it was a very different course yesterday.  

[Kirk Gill]

It seems like The Dunes is always sopping wet.

I'm sure it's an interesting conundrum for the super - if they really do play it firm and fast when the long grass is is really full (like right now), slow play would probably develop as player after player watched their drives and approaches roll into the long stuff. You're right, Tim, right now your ball could barely roll in and you'd have a hard time finding it (much less actually hitting it if you DO find it).

Of course, it's been so unseasonably hot this spring, they may just be in "keep it alive" mode. One wonders if the turf theories espoused by Scott Anderson in his Feature Interview would work in the Colorado climate. Riverdale Dunes would be a worthier test playing at f&f levels............

[Tom_Doak]

My two associates in Denver play it on sunny winter days, when the ground is frozen.

[Doug Wright]

Tom,

Any explanation for the problem--wrong grass?

[Craig Sweet]

They have bent fairways?  Well, here in Montana it's been hot and wet...very wet...and hot and very wet....on and off all spring long. We have excellent drainage and right now we have standing water on several fairways....no irrigation for more than a week.

[Brad Swanson]

   The Dunes is typically overwatered in my experience, however the 11th fairway is nearly always more firm than the rest of the course.  Trying to keep one in the fairway and out of the pond hittng a fade off the tee with a driver is quite a challenge.  I usually chickened-out and layed-up with a 2 iron to play safe.  RD would be a very different course with some firm and fast and a good amount of wind to complement, rather than the typical round of yard darts.

Cheers,
Brad

[Tim Pitner]

Five plus years ago, I really don't remember the course being so overwatered.  Perhaps I'm mistaken and selectively remembering rounds in summer afternoons or cooler months.  I too wonder what the cause of the problem is.  Some maintenance expert may be able to help, but perhaps Tom Doak can chime in too.  

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:  I've only seen the course once in the last ten years, so I can't comment on their maintenance regime.

The problem with bent fairways on a busy public course is that if you don't aerify them they will get really thatchy, and then the drainage gets worse.  That would be especially true of Riverdale Dunes because there is no subsurface drainage ... we just directed the water off the fairways to low spots in the rough, where it was supposed to perk freely into the gravelly soil.

[Tim Pitner]

Tom D,

Thank you for your comments.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

From my experiences in the mountain time zone there seems to be quite a few of the courses -- some of the more exceptional ones I might add -- that seem hellbent on overwatering to the point of zaniness.

I understand the need to keep turf alive -- but saturation to the point of water pumping under your golf shoes is a bit much.

One of the worst offenders if UNM / Championship in Albuquerque. This superb Red Lawrence design is ALWAYS wet from the half a dozen times I have played the course.

Fortunately, the asst. super at Black Mesa is now the head man there and one can only hope the design merits of the layout will be permitted to come to the forefront.

I know supers like to play it safe but there comes a point in time when the qualities of the design cannot be held in the rear in order for grass to be green to the point of a sponge like effect.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt...personally, I don't think all superintendents have figured out the low humidity/drying winds/low soil moisture combo that prevails through out most of the mountain time zone...the combination can very quickly kill grass, and most supers will err on the side of more water....

Limited irrigation, and firm and fast is well and good, but it requires a great deal of work, vigilance, money, patience and some luck.

[Josh_Mahar]

Craig nailed it on the head "Limited irrigation, and firm and fast is well and good, but it requires a great deal of work, vigilance, money, patience and some luck."  
It is just easier and cheaper to overwater.  I know that won't go over well with this crowd, but it is the way it is.  A super has to bust his butt to keep things on the dry but not dead side.  
Bentgrass fairways should be reserved for the high end private clubs on very good soils.  It is one of the poorest choices for fairway grass IMHO.  
If Riverdale has a gravelly soil it would probably be tough to keep fairways on the dry side and still alive.  With low humidity and heat, those things could fry real easy.  
Alot of this is speculation due to not knowing what the particulars of the irrigation regime is there.  Maybe it was a heavy water day in a deep and infrequent  irrigation cycle?

[Matt_Ward]

Guys enough with the laundry list of excuses.

I am talking about key courses that are SATURATED. I am not picking a bone with just a bit of moisture -- but I'm speaking from numerous experiences where the courses are simpy doused for the sole purpose in protecting the behind of the superintendent.

I am not suggesting brick like conditions but the design elements are completely negated with such day-to-day actions.

It may work to cover someone's behind but it doesn't inspire me to return to such layouts until I hear clear and convincing reports to the contrary.

[Joe Hancock]

Guys enough with the laundry list of excuses.

I am talking about key courses that are SATURATED. I am not picking a bone with just a bit of moisture -- but I'm speaking from numerous experiences where the courses are simpy doused for the sole purpose in protecting the behind of the superintendent.

I am not suggesting brick like conditions but the design elements are completely negated with such day-to-day actions.

It may work to cover someone's behind but it doesn't inspire me to return to such layouts until I hear clear and convincing reports to the contrary.

Josh Mahar's insights are hardly a list of excuses. It's OK to be mad at conditioning, but don't dismiss the facts that maybe the wrong turf was chosen, or perhaps drainage and soil issues were dealt with poorly, etc.

Craig gives some insight to the difficulties that the environment brings...not excuses, just facts. Why jump these guys and look at this so one dimensional?

Joe

[ET]

These long grasses ,often very close to fairways, seem to be horrendous for the players. Lost balls after a hardly off line shot. If players follow the rules they are forever going back to the tee, after the 5 min. search. Sometimes your shot doesn't seem too much off line and "no find". Yet the firm fairways are the best golf.
I think every architect and superintendent should be required to play these "long grass rough" courses on a regular basis.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt, you have complained that the Old Works course was too wet for your tastes. Yet, the superintendent there has gone out of his way to provide firm and fast conditions for his clients. Unfortunately, sometimes it rains out here in Montana. Unfortunately, it gets over 95 degrees with zero humidity, and a hot drying wind, out here in Montana for weeks and weeks....Unfortunately, we sometmes have extremely dry winters with little snow cover, extremely cold temps, no humidity, lots of dry wind, and go into spring with very soil moisture...

Any superintendent, any general manager, any owner of a golf course in the intermountain west is going to err on the side of more water, rather than less.

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

I'm not the guy who made the decision on what turf is used or the soil that's present or the poor drainage. That's the problem of those associated with the facility.

As a consumer I don't want to hear the laundry list of excuses when these same courses have no inhibition to charge top dollar when such day-to-day conditions don't warrant that type of personal investment -- money wise or time wise.

I just happen to be a consumer and frankly I was eager to play the Red Lawrence UNM / Championship course and it is certainly no fun when the course is deliberately doused with H20. I mean drives splat on impact and go no further.

I can see if the water came from the sky -- no one controls Mother Nature. But, I do have a serious problem when superintendents frankly only case about how a course looks and simply jettison the idea of how the course plays. Understanding the former doesn't grant license to be ignorant or even stupid on the latter.

As a consumer I look at things from the standpoint of net return for the time and $$ I provide. If that's one dimensional in your book so be it.

Joe -- I don't have an issue with a bit of water -- but I am talking about DOUSING. Let's be clear OK because I'm not posting this response in clear detail simply to make blanket bashings of the work of superintendents in that region of the USA.

[Joe Hancock]

Matt,

I'll be the first to tell anyone that there are supers out there that overwater to cover their ass. There is varying degrees of ability and attention to detail in that end of the business too.

Your first posts seemed to be directed at the superintendents responsibilities without regard to other factors that may have a large part in his/ her decision to use water in whatever amounts neccesary.

I just want to make sure that everyone else reading these posts don't take your position  of "laundry list of excuses" and take it back to their club and jump their super if they think their course is overwatered.. Sometimes it does go back to the architect, or construction crew, or budget, or..or...or....

Go ahead and be disappointed in doused conditioning...just make sure that all the variables are considered and be careful about how it is presented here (or elsewhere) so that it doesn't become a one dimensional problem.

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

I consider "all the variables" Joe but let's not have rabbit ears when the situation speaks to the manner by which I accurately described it.

When any group quickly in any profession resorts to excuses the probability is that denial more than proactivity to the issue(s) at hand are being neglected.

I salute those who understand what I am saying but frankly the dousing solution is one that too many top quality mountain time zone layouts are doing and my personal visits attest to that.

[Doug Wright]

... but frankly the dousing solution is one that too many top quality mountain time zone layouts are doing and my personal visits attest to that.

Matt,  

Just curious--what other courses out here in the Mountain Time Zone overwater besides your poster child UNM South?

[Joe Hancock]

Matt,

I accurately, and with 25 years of experience as a superintendent, gave you reasons why I wanted to make sure the facts and variables are presented. People read this crap and run with it.

The only thing I knpow about rabbit ears and saluting has to do with an old junior high joke that involved pulling both front pockets out of your pants.

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Once again -- for the upteeeenth time -- I call the condition of the courses as I see them and play them. The situation at Old Works was stated very clearly by me. Maybe you missed it.

The first visit was superb -- the turf and design worked hand in hand. The second visit much less so. I acknowledged the issue of Mother Nature but I also stated -- which you failed to acknowledge let alone understand -- that DOUSING of courses is not a sound solution. It indicates a desire to keep turf green at all costs for the sake of appearances and often undercuts -- rather severely -- the basis of the design.

There are plenty of supers who are quite adept in getting grass to grow -- integrating the growth of grass with the merits of the design is what makes playing such courses a joy. Playing courses where tee shots splat after making contact with the turf is not appropriate or sound IMHO.

Please Craig -- enough of the laundry list of excuses -- there are a number of courses I have played in the Mountain Time Zone that understand how to do two things at once without taking away from either item. I understand the dynamics faced in the region but it's also high time that those who DOUSE courses over and over again understand that such a remedy is nothing more than a cheap out that fails to deliver what the design is suppose to deliver. If you don't see that so be it.

Doug:

There are a few in the Colorado area -- Sanctuary was extremely wet when I was last there -- Castle Pines was also a bit moist for my tastes. In fairness, Sanctuary had some T-storms but a good bit of it also came from the application from man's hands. The Nicklaus Summit Course at Cordillera also was overly wet.

On the flip side I got marvelous results from Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction, Devil's Thumb in Delta was also good-- ditto the Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch, to name just three.

Joe:

The people who "read this crap and run with it" need to run out and cut the applied water usage so that the design merits can function properly and not be nothing more than a wet sponge.

The rabbit ears application only applies to those who fail to understand that golf is not just a game of who can grow the most green layout.

[Kirk Gill]

The sad truth is that a lot of folks I know would rather play on a sopping wet course that is emerald green than play on a brownish course that is firm and fast.

That said, as I mentioned earlier on this thread, Riverdale happens to be an example of a course that always seems to be wet during summer. I've been on the course when they've been watering during play. As others have said, I think that there are things other than ass-covering going on with this course, and it may be the result of drainage and grass-choice issues. What is fortunate is that the design of the course is good enough to warrant repeat play regardless of this issue.