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paul cowley

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Foster City golf course
« on: June 13, 2006, 09:03:16 AM »
As I was landing from the south yesterday at San Francisco, I saw a golf course on a hill to my left....I chuckled because the routing seemed to just go up and down a pretty good slope........now I know going 180 mph and looking down from 500 ft is probably not a fair way to assess a course [well maybe some ;) ......can anyone help concerning its pedigree?
From the white rocks below I guess its in the Foster City area so I assume this would rule out Harding Park or Olympic. ;)

just curious...    
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 09:48:52 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike Benham

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2006, 09:41:59 AM »
There are 2 courses out your left window on approach to SFO.

As you clear the San Mateo bridge on the "Tip-Toe" approach, Marianer's Point, a 9-holer with driving range and practice area is below.  This area of the bay is also haven to windsurfers ...

Next up on the left is Poplar Creek, the old San Mateo County golf course.  Remodeled a few years back with the assistance of our own Gib Papizian, it is relatively short in yardage at 6,000 or so yards, but the prevailing winds coupled with smallish greens test the golfer.  Poplar Creek has 3 driveable and tight par-4s on the front side and 2 difficult into the wind par-4s on the back.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 09:42:23 AM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2006, 10:04:56 AM »
Poplar Creek isn't on a hill - it's on very flat land right quite close to the bay.  The only course on a hill you might have seen is Peninsula GC, which is the former Beresford GC, designed by Donald Ross - our only CA Ross course.  The historians here can debate as to how much Ross is there now; I was under the impression the course being played today is significantly different from his routing.  In any case, that would be an "up and down a pretty good slope" golf course far more than the two Mike mentioned... however, you see the two Mike mentioned FAR more clearly on approach into SFO.  You go pretty much right over these two... Peninsula would be a few miles off to your left, toward the hills and trees.  But then again, Peninsula is nowhere near any white rocks, so... never mind!  It must be Poplar Creek you saw.  Just do understand there are no hills whatsoever on that golf course - some of the greens are built up but otherwise it is pancake flat.  And today's version is a lot of fun to play!

TH
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 10:06:29 AM by Tom Huckaby »

paul cowley

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2006, 10:22:59 AM »
Tom....it was definitely on a hill and seemed to be an older core routing....the parallelism was striking from the air [ but maybe more exaggerated as well]

Well, with yours and Mikes posts it seems the West Coast has finally woken up and I can leave my motel and go rout a course on similar terrain [?] in the Monterrey area.

...thanks and have a good day :).
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 10:25:30 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Huckaby

Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2006, 10:51:58 AM »
Bill - that's what I thought also - but he said he saw white rocks around it... I'm so confused!

Paul - on man, you have to fill me (us) in on what you're doing... I am far from privy to the goings on of new courses in Monterey.

TH

Mike Benham

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2006, 10:58:50 AM »
Yes, I missed the "hill" part of your post.  So here is the aerial on Peninsula G&CC in San Mateo.

If he is seeing white rocks, that would be Poplar Creek.  The only other option would be Green Hills but that is at SFO and you wouldn't see it on the approach.


Peninsula Google Aerial








"... and I liked the guy ..."

David_Tepper

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2006, 01:53:47 PM »
It could also possibly be Green Hills (A. Mackenzie) in Millbrae, another very hilly golf course.  

Gib_Papazian

Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2006, 03:41:57 PM »
It was certainly Peninsula CC - but  you do not get a clear view of it when approaching from the south over the S.F. Bay.

Ron Forse took a horrible mess and made it into something I'm confident Donald Ross would approve of in every way.

I was fortunate to visit with him many times during construction and was impressed at how learned and detail oriented his approach. Ron's goal was not to leave the tiniest clue that anybody but Ross had been there and I believe he was successful.

Here is something I wrote a few years back (the miracle of computer document search programs) on the subject:


PLEASE FORWARD TO ANG SPORTS. THIS IS A GOLF COLUMN FOR THE TUESDAY SAN MATEO TIMES.
By Gib Papazian



Longtime readers are aware that we have taken a keen interest in the remodeling progress of Peninsula C.C.. For those unfamiliar with this unique ongoing project, let me briefly bring you up to date.

Originally called Beresford CC, Peninsula CC was organized by several prominent members of the local Jewish community who had been barred from joining the more established clubs in the area.

Despite being America’s most prolific and respected golf architect at  the time, Donald Ross had never designed a golf course west of the Rockies. Knowing his name on their course would give the fledgling club instant credibility - and serve as a metaphorical thumbing of the nose at rival clubs - the founders lured Ross out from his home in Pinehurst to build them a golf course.

Ross spent several weeks meticulously mapping out the layout  before turning the final plans over to the club and heading home. He never returned to California and Peninsula CC remains the lone Ross creation in our part of the nation.

Like many clubs organized between the great wars, a series of financial setbacks forced the sale of some land resulting in  redesigns of the golf course, particularly the front nine.

As many clubs rediscovered their pedigree over the last decade, it has become fashionable to undertake restorations of their courses - often done concurrently while solving drainage or agronomic issues.

When the time came, the notoriously muddy Peninsula club brought in Donald Ross restoration specialist Ron Forse, from western Pennsylvania to do the work. The back nine is completed and your faithful scribe spent the day last week with Forse examining the work. He has just begun the front side, scheduled to reopen next year.

“This was a unique project in many ways,” says Forse, as he busily snapped photos for his archives. “A few of the holes had been built long after Ross was gone, so we studied what he did in similar situations at other courses and blended those ideas with his original work out here.”

Players at Peninsula will find their hodgepodge back nine replaced with fairways that drain beautifully and artistic, old-world bunkering. To my taste, the expansive putting surfaces are varied, tasteful and elegant - a perfect reflection of the architecture of Donald Ross.

The 10th hole features bold plateaus divided by a diagonal swale running towards the back of the green. Both the 11th and 12th are much as they were with a few wrinkles, and re-expanded to original size.

“Wherever possible,” says Forse, “I try not to lay a new imprint on what was there, just bring it back as close to original as possible.  After all, Ross was a genius at building greens.”

The 13th and 16th greens - which sit next to each other -  had been redesigned many years ago and always appeared a bit bland. Now, golfers will find two holes with similar topography but vastly different putting surfaces. Both invite numerous approach options with distinct personalities.

“I had to do something to distinguish them from each other and chose a couple of ideas from two of my favorite Ross courses,” said Forse, who declined to reveal which ones.

The most impressive green I saw was the uphill 14th, framed by two irregular mounds on the outer perimeter of the green. The putting surface is a collage of interconnecting humps, drop-offs and swales that certainly ranks as one of the most complex creations I have ever seen.

“We worked hard on that one,” he said, “because it is tough to get something with all that movement to tie together correctly.”

It has been said that the key to success in any endeavor is getting the last 10 percent right and the deeply religious Forse is a relentless perfectionist.

There are still nine holes to go, but Forse continues to agonize over minute details. Standing on the 18th tee with the construction supervisor, we are discussing changes to the hole when Forse suddenly scowls.

“That’s wrong,” he says, pointing at a fairway bunker in the distance.

“It looks fine to me,” said the supervisor.

“See the nose on the top of the bunker?” asked Forse. “Donald Ross never built symmetrical features like that.”

“Well, it will slowly change over time,” said the supervisor hopefully.

“I don’t care,” said Forse. “What the heck is the point of doing a Ross restoration and then leaving a mistake? Make sure it is fixed tomorrow morning.”

The final phase on the front nine includes moving the first green back onto the hillside and expanding the second and ninth back to original size. The sixth and seventh did not exist on the original golf course and Forse will have to search his vast archives for some inspiration.

When completed, will it be a pure and original Ross course like Pinehurst? Not exactly, but the membership can be assured that it will be as authentic as humanly possible - and something the great man himself would be proud to attach his name to.
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On the subject, the United States Golf Association has given its top literary award for the year to GolfWeek editor Brad Klein and his book “Discovering Donald Ross.” The book can be bought at Barnes and Noble or on the web at www.sleepingbearpress.com

     
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 03:45:24 PM by Gib Papazian »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2006, 03:45:35 PM »
Gib - great article, and that's cool that Peninsula seems to have been so carefully and faithfully restored... but... I'm a weird cat, more interested in exactly what course Paul was talking about.

If he can't get a clear view of it approaching from the south.. and if he claims to have seen white rocks... than what the hell course did he see?  It has to be Poplar Creek, and he was just imagining hills.  Either that or he was imagining white rocks.

 ;D ;D


Gib_Papazian

Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2006, 04:13:24 PM »
If he was coming in from the other direction, it might have been Cal Club . . . . .

I cannot imagine that he could have mistaken Emerald Hills for a full size track.

Maybe the simplest answer is the right one:

"The White Faces of Merion" . . . .  "The White Rocks of Peninsula."

Tim Leahy

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2006, 07:50:41 PM »
It might have been Gleneagles also.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2006, 11:45:47 PM »
Hey guys....just got back to SFO awaiting a 11:50 red eye to Atlanta....please excuse my ignorance of the immediate area.
From your posts it seems most likely it is the Ross course...glad to hear it has been in good hands.
My white rocks reference concerned the spelling of FOSTER CITY [which is outlined in white rocks or something similar....maybe a local custom as I see it quite often out here], that one flies over on the approach, which was something I noticed about the same time I viewed the course to the west.

TomH....I guess I'm not at liberty to discuss the location [sorry], but its on the Peninsula, has bay views combined with a good bit of sand-based slope and vegetation...an excellent site!.....and one that I would rout more across the slopes than up and down [well a little up and down].

« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 01:15:00 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Huckaby

Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 12:14:26 AM »
Paul - cool - it was Peninsula you saw.  And that is kinda cool how Foster City is spelled out...

Anyway thanks for the info, and understood you've likely said too much already.  Can't wait until you can say more!

Bill_McBride

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2006, 08:01:45 PM »
Paul, those slopes are so steep that you might have to specify fairway cuts at 1/2" to be sure the tee balls didn't roll into deep ca ca downhill!  Some of those fairways are 4-6* slopes.  

Have you seen Montecito CC in Santa Barbara?  Sort of the same thing, all the side hill tee balls gather in the first cut.  I understand Nicklaus Golf Design is going to completely redo the course, interested in the routing and whether or not it will change.  Jim Lipe, are you there?

paul cowley

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2006, 09:57:49 PM »
Bill....if it is really that steep I can see why the Donald routed it straight up and down in an attempt to keep things in the fairway.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Foster City golf course
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2006, 12:00:01 PM »
Gleneagles is 9-holes...but a worthwhile course. I visited late last year and gave them some brief advice about drainage. It has become a mess with the runoff from the hillside. Gleneagles is, however, slightly north and west of the SFO airport.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
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