[Tommy_Naccarato]

I've seen some interesting comments from all that played the Palms and the Plantation in regards to the architecture.

Originally the first time when playing there, I thought the courses were very similar, almost like sister courses but after just finishing my third round at each course, I'm convinced now more then ever that the courses are two very different golf courses each with their own very character.

Truthfully, I like both of them, but if I had to pick, The Palms would probably be the course I like the most. (Both clubs are quite enjoyable as clubs, with the Plantation winning-out simply because it's simply a really cool place!) Quite obviously the difficulty of growing bent grass greens in the desert has been conquered in southern La Quinta. I think it adds a lot to the design pf The Palms. so much that it's reputation is that of a solid players club.

While both courses are in former date groves, the Plantation has taken more advantage by something keen to their site--those date palms creates this alley-like effect, and it seems to work pretty good. I've seen some pretty straight drivers line-up unevenly, and I think a lot of that could be attributed to these 'alleys.'

Meanwhile the Palms utlizes some earth-movement that created some very pronounced undulations. More specifically at the 10th and the 13th. Honestly did anyone ever see that coming?

And that's the beauty of the Palms, it sort of jumps out and surprises you. The unique sequence of holes, which quite honestly, was a gamble in the Coachella Valley. the people of the Valley who come in on the weekends, don't really understand what a par 70 really is, especially one with 3, par 5's and 5, par 3's, the last two being back to back.

While there has been some other interesting comments reguarding the sage, and it 's hallway-like effect that it poses at #2,3,4, & 5. It doesn't bother me much other then the wind break it provided, thus cutting out any fresh air and wind! Other then that, to me the Mesquite poses a unique feeling and really does create much more memorable golf holes.

What sayeth the rest of you?

[Mike Benham]

While both courses are in former date groves, the Plantation has taken more advantage by something keen to their site--those date palms creates this alley-like effect, and it seems to work pretty good. I've seen some pretty straight drivers line-up unevenly, and I think a lot of that could be attributed to these 'alleys.'

Tommy - Thanks for starting this topic

I actually had a different opinion of the effects of the palms on the Plantation course.  The swath cut through the palms was quite wide, and it was the fairway bunkering that dictated the shape and direction of the tee ball.

I thought it was interesting that 3 of the 4 par 3s were over water including one that was similar to the 12th at Augusta but without the azealas ... likewise, 3 out of the 4 par 5s had a water hazard near the green.  No par 4s had any water.

I like the Plantation course better than the Palms

And yes, it is a golf club, no doubt about that ... as Joe Perches said, you could go there, practice at the great facilities, eat, play 18 holes of golf and be home in 4 1/2 hours ...

Mike

[rjsimper]

Some of this is copied from my first post in Huckaby's thread, but it got buried a bit...and I'll expand on my thoughts now that we can focus a bit more

The Palms-

A great "feel" to the place - low key, easy-going, and absolutely effuses "players club" from the moment you walk in the door.  I liked the course and I too thought the green complexes were exceptional - smartly conceived contours and surrounds.  My only reservation in giving it a full endorsement is that in one or two places I thought it a bit unnecessarily claustrophobic (the 4th comes to mind against the fence).

The other curiosity of the layout was the disparity between the nines for no apparant reason.  The front runs about 3200 yards and a par of 34, while the back hits close to 3900 and a par of 36.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but curious to be sure.  Why, on land where the holes are made and not found (unlike say, Pacific Dunes where the 3-3-5 start to the back is what the land presented) would Curley and Schmidt have chosen to keep the front nine compacted in one corner of the property whereas the back nine stretches it's legs over a much larger portion of the property (hitting three corners of the club land as it traverses the desert).  The back wallops you over the head with 3 big par 4s to start, and doesn't much let up until the reachable finishing hole.

I would say my favorite hole on the front was either the "augusta 13" 6th or the long par 3 5th - loved the green complex at that par 3.  


Plantation-

I really liked this course.  I preferred it to the Palms.  I'll be interested to hear the split between the group, and I know I heard ahead of time that many preferred the Palms to the Plantation, but while I preferred the green complexes a bit more at the Palms, the Plantation routing and corridors was superior.  The course felt significantly more cohesive and it flowed naturally from here to there without the jolts and jars that the Palms hiccuped.  I don't know what the land numbers are, but it felt like a bigger golf course (though they do love the Palm Springs signature - the medium length par 3 over water)

I'm a bit upset with myself that I did not pick up on what Mike points out here - the water on the 3s and 5s but the absence of it on any of the 4s - I definitely noticed the similarity in the 3s, but completely missed the comment on 4s and 5s.

Either way, I do feel like I would enjoy the Plantation a bit more as my daily player.

Because of the differences in the green complexes, though, and the superior character of those at the Palms, I prefer the Palms as a match play course - more excitement beyond simply making it to the green.

I've said it before but I'll say it again - the food at the Plantation was excellent - talk about a club where a guy could feel at home.

Tommy - I'm really interested to hear that you thought they were so similar upon your first run-through - I was actually most struck, I think, by how different they were.  When I first heard that we would be playing two flat Schmidt/Curley private designs in our first two days, I wondered if the courses would run into each other and bleed together in my head.  Well, they didn't (a great thing, and a testament to their ability to create variety).

What does everyone think about the "alternate back tees" idea - we played those.

For those who did not play, the course (forgive my memory here) is around 6600 from the second to last set of tees, and around 7100 frm the tips, but they have "alternate back tees" set on 4 holes (long par 4s) that eliminate all of the 460 yard holes.  These tees are on the card, rated, and the member we played with said that many of the Plantation members choose these.

I thought it was interesting...I guess I'd say I liked it as a concept, though I don't mind the occasional bear of a par 4.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I will keep this short under I was suppossed to leave for houston 30 minutes ago. I thought the Plantation had a better routing and more interesting holes to me. I liked the Palms green complexes but really did not like the 3 different personalities of the 6/6/6 program.I will go into more later but I would love to see the Plantation again.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ryan,
The similarities for me were strictly that both sites were former flat date palm orchards. I also must confess that there was probably a gap of more then three years from the first time I played The Palms to the time I played the Plantation.

I have to respectfully disagree about the dasparity of the two distinct nines at the Palms. You see, Rustic Canyon has two distinct nines in a similar fashion. I believe in variety and character and that's why the Palms--for me is the better of the two. You can't turn a blind eye to the best set of Curley par 3's (five of them no less!) to date. It's as simple as that, and they come at really good times during the round and are of various lengths and challanges.

To me the Plantation has one really good par 3 and that is the 12th. But, I can't over-look the sleepy severity of the 5th which is a hole that will bite one's behind everytime!

Andy Lipschultz mentioned something to me that was quite perceptive also. Did anyone notice the way that a ball in or near the creek always offered a point of relief--where you could still get a shot at the hole, even though partally obstructed by the creek?

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the Plantation, especially as a club. Very unpretentious, good food, excellent staff and really cool setting. It's the kind of club that I wish all clubs to be, or at least aspire to be. Never a pressure in the world. No feeling of  trying to be someone your not. How much better could one get it in the Coachella Valley? The funny thing is that the Palms isn't all that much different.

That being, did anyone notice the painting in the main area of the clubhouse of the Plantation?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tommy can confirm my smiling face and effusive comments coming off the 18th green at Palms.  I really liked that course.  I kinda liked the quirky routing and divergent nines in par and length - the weirder the better there for me.  I also really liked the greens - the rolls, the surrounds falling off, the cool contours... And the astute comment about the creek is right -there was enough playable area in there to make it always tempting.  I played a ball out of there on that twisty par 5 on the front nine (#9?) - that was cool.

I'd play that course again in a heartbeat - Jon C. and I got pasted in our match, but it was a blast anyway.

Re Plantation.... count me in the chorus of those saying what a cool, welcoming, unpretentious, fun club I found that to be.  As for the course... I just can't remember all that much.  Strange.  There was a very neat short par 4 on the back which required a terrifying pitch...but that's really all that jumps out in my mind.

Now back to football...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Would you be thinking of the 15th? That is a very good hole that always seems to invite trouble.

And yes, I think our feelings of the Palms are much alike. Lot of cool stuff going on there. Some really great greens and even better bent grass in the desert. That effort alone is worth a gold star!

[Jason Topp]

From the other thread:


 I liked the Palms better than the Plantation (although I need to split hairs to distinguish them).  I played so poorly at the Palms that my perspective is a bit skewed, but here are my thoughts:

1.  The par threes at the Palms were terrific and reminded me of Australian short holes, with the primary difference being the soggy greens (no doubt necessitated by hot weather and bent grass).  The 2nd was a terrific 170 yard shot in which a bailout right was rewarded with a difficult flop shot.  The 5th was a good long par three with a difficult swale to the left and the 8th is the rare example of a very interesting uphill par three using a diagonal creek with plenty of room to bail out for the timid.  On the back, the par threes are back to back and consist of a tightly bunkered short hole, followed by a 225 yard par three running the opposite direction.

2.  To me, the Palms provides much more interesting decisions off the tee on the longer holes.  Various holes use creeks, palm trees and bushes and are of an appropriate length that an agressive play results in a manageable shot to the green, whereas a conservative play results in a much more difficult play.  By contrast, the landing areas at the Plantation were extremely wide, and I felt less need to challenge hazards off the tee.

3.  I prefer creeks to lakes, and, while neither course uses much in the way of water hazards, I thought the creek was used (or constructed) brilliantly at the Palms on holes 6-9.

4.  I think the challenging small greens at the Palms are close to the ideal.  One must be very precise, but one will have some type of shot if the shot is missed, usually a very difficult pitch to a small target with the option of just hitting a safe shot if necessary.

5.  Unlike many, I like a course to have one or two tight penal holes such as are found at the 3rd and 4th.  I think one of the skills a player should have is the ability to put it in play with severe consequences.  I hate a steady diet of such holes, and 3 is pretty wide.  

6.  The Palms had more of a quirk factor, with par 34 on the front, 36 on the back and 700 yards difference in lenth.  

7.  There was more shade at the Palms.  

All a matter of taste, but of course, I am right.  

[Evan Fleisher]

That being, did anyone notice the painting in the main area of the clubhouse of the Plantation?

TN,

Are you speaking of the large portrait of the architectural "masters" above the fireplace?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

That would be the one.

[ed_getka]

One thing I found interesting about these courses was how the second half of the fairway will dip down a bit, which I presume is how they got dirt to raise up the green. I noticed this more at Plantation.
   I felt like both courses has some nice up and down movement for land that I assume was dead flat to start with. My initial impression at the Palms was that the contouring was overdone compared to the Plantation, but a week later I can't really think of good examples. Maybe I was still having leftover motion sickness from PGA West on Friday. Now that course has so much ridiculous contouring that you could get seasick walking around that place.
   Palms:
1  Pretty straightforward opening hole. Green raised up from scooped out area in front that effectively makes the green play a little on a diagonal from the line of play.

2  Standard flat par 3, with flanking bunkers.

3  Par 4 dogleg left. Interesting look with mesquites all down the R side it seems, but there is actually an opening where tee shots have room to land safely.

4  Short par 4. Green raised up and is a small target with fall off R, bunkering left. I thought this green could have been better with a little more internal contouring since it is such a short hole.

5  Solid par 3 with the bunkering that is short of the green to try and fool you into thinking it is greenside. I liked the greensite being raised up and shallow to line of play.

6  Par 5   Straightaway off the tee, and then hole turned left in the last 150 yards or so over to a green on the otherside of a creek/pond complex. I didn't play this hole well so I don't have a good sense of how well the elements work together.

7  Par 4, lake down the left most of the way, think shorter version of a typical Pete Dye #18 (except you can bail out R here).

8  Solid par 3, with creek bed on a diagonal running away to the left up along the green.

9  Dogleg R with bunker guarding the inside of the dogleg. Bunkering short of the green and greenside protecting a nicely contoured green. Apparently Curley does this hole frequently from what others have said, but it was the first time I had seen a Curley course and I liked the challenge of the hole.

10   Straightaway par 4 that dips down before rising up to a raised green flanked by bunkers.

11  Long par 4, fwy dipping down before raising back up to the green.

12  par 4, dogleg R. Visual deception bunkering short left of green.

13  par 4, sliding L fairway again dips down before rising up to green protected front L.

Overall I found the greens to be fairly uninteresting, but they did have some movement, and the short game requirements were fairly straightforward. More to follow.

[Tim Leahy]

The greens on the Palms were the best I played all week in PS and I feel that the Palms made you think more off the tee. The Plantation was a grip it and rip it course. Both courses treated us like members and were very playable. After all those Palm trees on Sat. and Sun. I felt naked on Stone Eagle.

[astavrides]

The greens on the Palms were the best I played all week in PS and I feel that the Palms made you think more off the tee. The Plantation was a grip it and rip it course. Both courses treated us like members and were very playable. After all those Palm trees on Sat. and Sun. I felt naked on Stone Eagle.

not to divert the thread, but...
Tim,
what did you think of the greens at the classic club?  They seemed to be rolling about a 12 when I played it.  

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