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Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2006, 10:31:23 AM »
Castle Pines Golf Club starts with a par 5 as well...
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2006, 11:14:51 AM »
Quote from: Kevin_Reilly on July 15, 2006, 01:15:13 AM
Quote from: Evan_Green on July 14, 2006, 06:43:53 PM
For whatever it is worth many of the best courses in CA begin with a par 5.


Off the top of my head:

LACC North
Valley Club of Montecito
Bel Air
Riviera
Olympic Lake
San Francisco
Spyglass
Monterey Peninsula Shore
Stanford
Spanish Bay
Tradition
Barona Creek
California GC
Meadow Club

 I guess architects who design in the Golden State like to start with par 5's  ;)


Olympic Ocean as well.


And even some of the not-so-best ...

Poplar Creek
Palo Alto Muni
Shoreline
Santa Clara Muni
San Jose Muni
DeLaveaga
Aptos Seascape
Bayonet
and there is still more ...
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Dennis_Harwood

Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2006, 12:04:17 AM »
Quote from: Mike Benham on July 14, 2006, 07:19:28 PM
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on July 14, 2006, 06:37:03 PM
CA - Spyglass Hill - RTJ.

Can't think of the other one though.

But am I right about this one?



I'm not sure if California is the right state but if Huck has the first part right than I will nominate the 1st hole at Coto de Caza on the North Course ...

That is the correct answer, Mike.  I'm not sure what you win, but whatever it was I said the prize was you get it!  (Sorry I guess I didn't offer a prize).
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Jim Nugent

Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2006, 01:07:15 AM »
Quote from: Mike Benham on July 15, 2006, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: Kevin_Reilly on July 15, 2006, 01:15:13 AM
Quote from: Evan_Green on July 14, 2006, 06:43:53 PM
For whatever it is worth many of the best courses in CA begin with a par 5.


Off the top of my head:

LACC North
Valley Club of Montecito
Bel Air
Riviera
Olympic Lake
San Francisco
Spyglass
Monterey Peninsula Shore
Stanford
Spanish Bay
Tradition
Barona Creek
California GC
Meadow Club

 I guess architects who design in the Golden State like to start with par 5's  ;)


Olympic Ocean as well.


And even some of the not-so-best ...

Poplar Creek
Palo Alto Muni
Shoreline
Santa Clara Muni
San Jose Muni
DeLaveaga
Aptos Seascape
Bayonet
and there is still more ...

Mike -- also Pelican Hills North, Costa Mesa Muni, Los Verdes Muni
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Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2006, 02:53:16 AM »
Some other CA courses that begin with par 5:

Tehama
La Purisima
The Crosby at Rancho Santa Fe
Roddy Ranch
GC at Boulder Ridge
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Jim Nugent

Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2006, 08:33:35 AM »
Tijeras Creek
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James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2006, 08:34:13 PM »
Quote from: Mike Benham on July 15, 2006, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: Kevin_Reilly on July 15, 2006, 01:15:13 AM
Quote from: Evan_Green on July 14, 2006, 06:43:53 PM
For whatever it is worth many of the best courses in CA begin with a par 5.


Off the top of my head:

LACC North
Valley Club of Montecito
Bel Air
Riviera
Olympic Lake
San Francisco
Spyglass
Monterey Peninsula Shore
Stanford
Spanish Bay
Tradition
Barona Creek
California GC
Meadow Club

 I guess architects who design in the Golden State like to start with par 5's  ;)


Olympic Ocean as well.


And even some of the not-so-best ...

Poplar Creek
Palo Alto Muni
Shoreline
Santa Clara Muni
San Jose Muni
DeLaveaga
Aptos Seascape
Bayonet
and there is still more ...

Isn't Pasatiempo #1 a par 5, or is it a par 4.4?

And of course, Pajaro Valley starts with a par 5! 8).  Prior to the change to the second (becoming a par 4 and a par 3) it may have started with three par 5's! :o

James B
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Chris Burgard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2006, 05:25:56 PM »

Scott and Tom H,

I agree that an opening par 5 should not be reachable. That's why I qualified my question as a "true" three-shotter.

Tom D,

Your quote made me laugh. While I agree that the 1st at AS is more agreeable for scoring than the 1st at Black Forest, would you prefer to start on #2???  :o

I can make 6 there just as easily as on #1. Tim Bert has it right. It is more demoralizing to start with a 6 on a par 4 than on a par 5 and easily done.

Jim T.

I will fully admit to being a trunk-slammer. It is very rare to find time to get to the range before a round. That is why I like the idea of a long, generous par 5 to work out the kinks.

I understand that the land dictates the layout but my 2 cents is that I like starting on a 5.

Chris

 
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2006, 05:32:09 PM »
Chris:

The problem is, to make a hole long enough to be a true three-shotter such that damn near all egos won't even TRY to reach in two, it's got to be over 600 yards.  And even then, some will still wait.  And if you do that, well... that's a lot of golf hole for the opener.

As I look at the lists of the many par 5 openers here in CA, I can't see many - if any - that are genuine three shotters for one and all.  The closest is likely Spyglass Hill.  Now this doesn't matter too much at private clubs or public places with sane 10 minute plus tee-times... But make it this way at our more insane public courses and trouble is a'brewing.

TH
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2006, 06:22:49 PM »
James -

Yes, Pajaro Valley starts with a par-5 but since I subtitled my list with the "Not so Best" I didn't want to include PV with the others.

Pasa use to be a par-5 and now it is just a straight forward par-4, yes, it is on the longish side but I wouldn't consider it a par 4.5 ...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:56:36 PM by Mike Benham »
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Tom Huckaby

Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2006, 06:30:09 PM »
Mike - what wonderful points.  You are a wise old codger.

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 17, 2006, 06:57:14 PM by Tom Huckaby »
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Doug_Feeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2006, 08:24:17 PM »
At Strantz's True Blue 1 & 10 are both Par 5's and from the tips are two of the most unreachable Par 5's I can remember playing.

If you are looking to avoid having a 6 on your card, you had better warm up before you play!

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Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2006, 10:10:19 PM »
Jim Nugent:

You are right on about the stroke allocation on par five holes. Having par fives with low stroke ratings is problematical if the holes are numbers 1,9,10,or 18, because over time getting early strokes on those holes is a big advantage to the higher handicap player.

Consider UNM South, where holes number 1,9, and 18 are par fives.

Suppose hole # 1 was the 3rd sroke hole, 9 was the first, and 18 was the 2nd. Now suppose we were playing and you were giving me three shots.

Wouldn't you feel disadvantaged? Over one hundred matches, I would win or tie those holes the majority of the time, a huge advantage for me.

While I think that an opening par five can be a good thing for many of the reasons already mentioned, the committee should be careful allocating hadicap strokes on them.

I often play at a course that does not have a range, and the opening par five is a welcome opportunity to hit a tee shot, a lay up with an iron, and a pitch to prepare for the harder tests to come.
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Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Par 5 First Holes - Good or Bad??
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2006, 03:02:14 AM »
Quote from: Doug_Feeney on July 17, 2006, 08:24:17 PM
At Strantz's True Blue 1 & 10 are both Par 5's and from the tips are two of the most unreachable Par 5's I can remember playing.

If you are looking to avoid having a 6 on your card, you had better warm up before you play!




Tobacco Road provides another example of a Par 5 opener on a Strantz course, and I would consider it to be a true 3-shot hole for nearly any amateur golfer playing from the correct set of tees. I like it as an opener because it follows the old MacKenzie principle of appearing to be difficult when there is, in fact, a generously wide target. However, it certainly can cause some traffic jams due to is semi-blind nature.
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