Desert Designs - Just, well, Wrong?

[Marty Bonnar]

The stimulating thread on KPV - and more specifically, Stone Eagle - reminds me of an idea that's been wallowing in the big mudbath of my cerebellum for a while...

The Q is - Is there ANYWHERE on this planet that is ACTUALLY TOTALLY unsuitable to development as a golf venue?

Seems to me that, climatically at least, somewhere like SE is as damn close to being 'unsuitable' as it's possible to get. Sheesh, we've got guys nearly DYING for a game of Golf, fercrissakes...!

Now I can see that TD did a gorgeous job with the landscape integration and seems like the general concensus is that it plays relatively well, but is it LOCATED in a situation that should NEVER ACTUALLY have been CONSIDERED for a golf course?

I guess I am, shall we say, uncomfortable with some pics I have seen of some courses and it always seems to be that the desert venues are the most 'disturbing' to my eye. This isn't an environmental thing, although that must be taken into account. This is more of a 'fit for purpose', 'form follows function' kind of view.

Tom D - please accept that this is NOT a criticism of your work. I too would happily accept a commission to design in a desert situation. As a landscape designer, it would be a remarkable canvas upon which to create, but boy would I feel 'awkward'...

FBD.

[Scott Coan]

They do seem completely out of place.  There were some pix a while back of SE with the sprinklers blasting away in the background on this lush green grass, surrounded by all this mountainous arid desert.  I'm not a "greenie" by any means but something quite disturbing about it.  

I do think that there's a heck of a lot less grass to water on desert courses vs. non-desert so not really an environmental issue.  I guess just seems so out of place visually...

I can only imagine what Old Tom or the good Doctor would say to each other if they could be see it now.  "What the f* have they done!!!"
 
That being said, people live in the desert and deserve to be able to play golf and SE looks like a fun place to play.  One would think you would need a good dose of real golf from time to time, as opposed to the desert variety.

[ed_getka]

All I can say is that when you drive out to Palm Springs and see the wasteland all around you and then enter the towns and see green grass and golf courses all over the place you have to wonder whether this is the best utilization of water. I sure hope most of it is effluent.

[Ryan Farrow]

There are regions of the desert that are, well actually WERE full of lush vegetation before damns were created. Does that make these areas wrong to build a golf course?

There are golf courses that are built as part of a watershed where runoff from surrounding areas is directed towards the course. Courses like this are full of dense vegetation and towering trees which make you feel like you are in Florida. So if a course a mile down the road has fairways split with cacti, ocotillo, and Joshua trees its all wrong? Or do you feel the entire region should not support a golf course habitat?


Desert golf is what it is. Most people who don't see that style course often really enjoy the change of scenery.

The golf world is all about variety, no?

[David Kelly]

You guys are getting carried away with this stuff.  

First of all the vast majority of the people who will be playing Stone Eagle will be playing in perfect weather as they will be there from November to April.  In fact the day after we played there SE went to a skeleton staff because of the reduced play in the summer.  The people who paid many thousands of dollars to join did not pay that money so that they would have a place to hang out in the summer.

Secondly I think the course is extremely playable and even the one guy who thinks the course is too "severe" admitted to only losing one ball in the course of play.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

Check your IM.  Thanks.

TH

[rjsimper]

FWIW, the only criticisms of Stone Eagle seem to be more from the Mountain angle than from the Desert angle - it just happens to be a Desert Mountain (no Nicklaus pun intended)

And to answer your question - yes, there are sites not at all suitable for golf, but I do not feel desert, mountain, or desert mountain golf is a fundamentally flawed proposition, and I think Stone Eagle is the single strongest piece of evidence to support this supposition.

[Tom Huckaby]

I would agree with Ryan Simper for the most part on this.  I do wish we'd leave sites like this more as a last resort, but perhaps we're at that stage here in California.  And if that's the case, well Ryan's right - Stone Eagle comes as close as any course I can think of to showing that such courses can be made to work.  I do believe some golfers won't have as much fun on them as others, but that also doesn't mean that the courses shouldn't exist.

TH

[Jordan Wall]

Tom,

think of it this way.

Could a better course have been built with that site??

[Tom Huckaby]

Jordan:

I've made it very clear on that other thread that the answer is a very emphatic NO to that.

But then one asks the other question... could a better course be built on a different site?

That's what FBD is asking, more or less.

TH

[ed_getka]

Ryan F,
   I assume your comments were directed to me. I don't have a problem with SOME golf courses in a desert setting. However, when I see 100+ golf courses and more on the way with no end in sight, and more housing, I begin to question the long term viability. I think some people think we live in a world of unlimited resources, and that just isn't the case.
None of my comments are directed at SE, it is more of a commentary on the pro-growth faction out there in the desert.

[Jordan Wall]

Tom,

There was no different site.

That was what Mr. Doak had to work with.

That means he did the best job that could have been done given the site.
If people do not like the course what can he do?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

There was no different site.

That was what Mr. Doak had to work with.

That means he did the best job that could have been done given the site.
If people do not like the course what can he do?

Jordan:  that's exactly what I've said on the other thread, many times, many ways.  You're preaching to the choir.

The question here is should a course be built there at all.  And that takes on many different issues, as the responders here are beginning to get into.  My take is I sure wish Doak was given some better land more appropriate for golf to work with in our state, but if Stone Eagle is all we get, we're certainly better off for it.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Martin:

That would be like saying there should be no courses in Scotland because it's too freaking cold and windy and wet.

Certainly, it is weird to build a course which requires as much artificial life support as does a desert course -- though Stone Eagle is no more or less costly than a hundred other desert courses built in the USA in the last 6-8 years.  And I would agree that it would probably be better for the world as a whole if there were fewer of these courses.  But putting them off-limits?  No way.  And don't forget, the desert is where a lot of well-to-do people go in the winter months, this is simply the law of supply and demand playing itself out.

I still think this was a special site, which allowed us to create something really different than the average desert course.  And that is how it should be judged, pro or con.  Saying we just shouldn't build a course there is silly.  Why is it better to rape and pillage those nice sandy properties at the base of the hill for housing development golf courses, than to build a golf course on top of a plateau with no houses around it?

P.S.  At both Sand Hills and Bandon Dunes they considered not building the courses at all because the site(s) were too windy.

[JohnV]

Tom,
How many acres of grass are there at Stone Eagle?  

It seemed like a lot, but I think that by having all those fairways tied together, it might be less than it looks.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I do not have that info off the top of my head.  I believe it is around 90 acres, including the range, but the range is pretty small there.  I know they told me Black Mesa is 80 acres including a much bigger range.

[rjsimper]

90 acres is the legal limit, I believe, in Scottsdale/PHX (all of Arizona?) and I felt as if there was MUCH more turf at Stone Eagle than there was at say, Troon North.

Of course, this is probably where it helps to have a course tip at 6800 instead of 7200

[Mark Bourgeois]

Martin,

I say we withhold judgment until this whole global warming thing plays out.  These developers could turn out to be visionaries...

[Tom_Doak]

Ryan:

There are two factors there.

The first one is that Troon North probably has much less than 90 acres of turf.  A lot of Arizona courses pretend they couldn't have had any more, but really stop well short of 90 acres to save $$.

The second one, which you get high marks for observing, is that a 6800 yard desert course can be a lot wider than a 7200 yard course.  It's not just 72/68 (5%) wider, either, because the fairways don't start until 150 yards off the back tee, or 2700 yards for the whole course.  So it's more like 45/41 wider, or 10% for those of you without a calculator.

[Ryan Farrow]

Speaking of Troon North and tee-box to fairway distances:

I still want to know how they get a tee mower up on those raised tee-boxes like at Troon North.


Everyday I am a bigger and bigger fan of runway square tee-boxes. Yes, I am serious.

[Marty Bonnar]

Martin:

That would be like saying there should be no courses in Scotland because it's too freaking cold and windy and wet.

...but you KNOW those are the finest conditions in which to enjoy our National Pastime!!?!!?

But seriously,
thanks for your well-reasoned reply. With your background, I just knew you'd have to have gone through a proper 'Survey and Analysis'-type approach to the Site.

I think I recall you saying somewhere before that clients wishes have to be, at least, considered in the context of a design. To me, this is definitely one of those fundamentals of the design process which the more rosy-tinted bespectacled around here conveniently generally ignore! (Presumably, if a developer has the wherewithal to develop something like this in the first place, then they've also done their homework as to its long-term viability in terms of maintenance, appeal - and CASHFLOW!)

FBD.

[Mike Hendren]

Everyday I am a bigger and bigger fan of runway square tee-boxes. Yes, I am serious.

Welcome to the movement.

Mike

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Doak, I'm curious about how much fill had to be imported and how the hell they got it up on top of some of those tee boxes!!     The engineering and cart path construction is a world class job.  And I did love those "Maxwell rolls" like the right side of #13 and #17.

[Michael Dugger]

Desert golf is probably not anymore frivolous than desert living in general, but to be sure, we have effed up the Colorado river.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
Not true by a long shot. I used to think the same thing as you, but after getting to know a lot of guys out in the Desert, they've taught me different as there is in fact a rather large aquifer that supplies the entire valley, as well as the All-American Canal which handles most of the courses in La Quinta. That water comes from Northern California via Sierra Nevada run-off.

Martin,
Count me in with the Doak faction in thinking that Stone Eagle has turned out to be an exceptional golf site. I think Tom has produced an extraordinarily fun golf course to play. It's just when it was 111 degrees F, and your on your second round of the day in that kind of heat, something's got to give.

As far as the rest of the desert, and to get back to the point of your question, the desert provides some dramatic landscape with little or no problem in confusing it with seaside links, other then there is no large body of water which cool breezes can blow from.

This particular site is about 10-15 minutes away from the Stone Eagle front gates. Unfortunately, or in this case FORTUNATELY it is protected and will never be anything but sand dunes. (ha ha ha, I'll believe it when I see it in twenty years!)






So you see Martin, this beautiful arid and dry desert is perfectly suited for ball and stick. Some of them reminscent of the same type of ocean runOne can also moan the loss of many other parcels just like this, where sand waste pushed and formed to create tract housing pads. It's was a contagious out-break that was controlled and exlored