Winged Foot Thoughts

[mike_malone]

 Steve, there are few doglegs at RG.

    I think WFW could push someone like Tiger to hit the club off the tee that assures a fairway approach to those unforgiving green complexes. If he assumes that "par" may win the thing I think he could decide to dial back.

[Phil Benedict]

Has Butch ever been to Augusta? Tiger seems to deal with the doglegs there pretty well. He'll deal with the much less dog leggy WFW just fine.

Bob

Not to be contrarian but post-Butch Tiger has only won one out the last four Masters, whereas he won 3 of 6 under Butch.  At Augusta he tends to use his 3-wood on certain dogleg holes (10, 13, 14 and 18).  How much he needs to use his driver may be important at Winged Foot.

[JESII]

I personally believe that if Tiger used his driver on a very limited basis he would do great.

[JESII]

I'd probably agree Billy, but more so at the US Open.

[Matt_Ward]

mayday:

The holes at WF/W are not "sharp" in the 90 degree sense that some would identify as typical dog-legs. The holes at the West truly "slide" to one direction or the other.

You have 30-45 degree angles where the player needs to turn the ball but never turn the balll abruptly.

The important ingredient for Tiger is finding the healthy interplay between being too aggressive and too cautious. I have personally seen instances of both and likely that happens when indecision is running through his mind because his long game can be a bit inconsistent.

WF / W will not allow Tiger or anyone else for that matter to simply hang around the lead unless you are hitting fairways and greens. You can make a number of pars with a deft short game but as Trevino was wont to say -- "just like dogs chasing pars -- you can't have pros putting for par." Sooner or later -- the dog (pro) will tire and the car (WF / W) will demonstrate it's dominance.

[mike_malone]

 Matt,

    I agree with your take on this. For WFW it's all about the green complexes. I think "placing" your drives there will not be important. Getting it in the fairway will be critical because you will need to control not only the distance for the approach but also the direction.

    Who can compete with Tiger in a "long irons from the fairways" contest?

[Matt_Ward]

Mayday:

You make the assumption that Tiger can afford to give up yardage and then still be able to dominate through his dexterity with the long irons.

I don't doubt he can do that but if he completely relies on that strateg I see it backfiring in much the same manner that Jack Nicklaus took when playing Muirfield in '72 in the BO. Jack took a very conservative approach because of the toughness of the course and simply allowed others to move in front because he chose to play way too cautious.

Tiger can separate himself from the pack by hitting driver at the appropriate times -- for example -- the opening hole would be a good place to start. If Tiger hits driver from right-to-left he can easily reach the green with a verfy short iron --8,9 or eveb PW. Given the severity of the green it doesn't pay to concede yardage only to have a much longer approach.

The juxtaposition of power and accuracy is what WF / W demands. Tiger needs to know when to step on the gas because playing too far back will only add more pressure on the long irons to hit some of the more vexing greens we have in American championship golf.

[Phil Benedict]

There was a special sports supplement in the Sunday New York Times, with an article about the Open.  They showed a pro caddy's notes for playing the 18th at Winged Foot.  Incredibly detailed all the way from tee-to-green.  Amazing how much there is to think about on a course of such high quality for the highest level players.  These guys are going to be drained by Sunday evening next week.

[Mike_Sweeney]

The Met Golfer's US Open edition is now online:

http://www.mgagolf.org/intraclub/query/catquery.html?doc_number=5886

[Brad Klein]

Then and now:

Winged Foot-West
Hole    1923        2006
1          440          450
2          390          453
3          208          216
4          400          469
5          505          515
6          313          321
7          182          162
8          413          475
9          413          514
Out     3264         3575

10        207          188
11        317          396
12        435          640
13        207          214
14        380          458
15        402          416
16        445          478
17        443          449
18        407          450
In       3243        3689
Total   6507        7264

[JESII]

Two things jump out Brad; they have lengthened the long holes as you prefer, and two of the three par threes are shorter. and the total par three yardage is 24 yards shorter today. That's amazing if you ask me.

Are you certain about those numbers? I ask because I thought #3 had a tee back at about 245.

[Brad Klein]

That's the official 2006 yardage, though they will likely use the back tee on no. 3 at 246 yards for one day.

[Neil Regan]

(Then and now. By the way, Tillinghast's engineer on the Winged Foot project was J.B. McGovern. I wonder if Donald Ross knew about the betrayal.)

Winged Foot-West
Hole    1923        2006
1          440          450
2          390          453
3          208          216
4          400          469
5          505          515
6          313          321
7          182          162
8          413          475
9          413          514
Out     3264         3575

10        207          188
11        317          396
12        435          640
13        207          214
14        380          458
15        402          416
16        445          478
17        443          449
18        407          450
In       3243        3689
Total   6507        7264

Brad,

  A question, and a comment.

  Can you please tell me more about McGovern and Winged Foot ? I think that the construction foreman for Winged Foot was John Elliffe, who remained as greenskeeper deep into the 1930s. I have pictures of him on the greens in 1923. Would the engineer and the foreman have had overlapping reponsibilities ?

  I believe the numbers you posted are off significantly for 1923. I will post the correct numbers later, but these jump out at me:
8 was always c440
9 was always c470 and 515

10 was never 207 except, as now, to a back pin
11 was always c370+
12 was always c495

  This is true for 1923 as well as 1929, when the course played almost 6800 yards for the Open. In fact, I have a newspaper from just befor the 1959 Open with a headline that Winged Foot will play shorter in 1959 than in 1929. The editor must have been dyslexic, because he flipped a digit from something like 6786 to 6876 for 1929, then compared that to 1959 yardages. I will check those numbers when I can get to the archives.

Neil

[Brad Klein]

What a nice little mistake on my part regarding McGovern. On closer inspection of the small type of the 36-hole plan, it's J.H. McGovern, New York. That's pretty dumb on my part, apologies.

Neil,The engineer would have been a civil engineer doing the detailed survey work and documentation and would not have been the construction foreman.

But the yardages are accurate from the plan, at least as reproduced from the book, "Winged Foot Story" by Douglas LaRue Smith, which reproduces the club's brochure from 1923 with the full 36-hole plan. Below the plan for the two courses it says:

A.W. Tillinghast   Golf Course Architect
        J. H. McGovern  Engineer
                   New York

Construction Work
BY
C.C. Lewis & Bros. Inc.
                 New York

[Steve_Lemmon]

So I will be tromping around in the gallery Fri - Sun.  What in particular should I look for?   Are there any premiere viewing areas like behind no. 2 at Augusta, where you can see multiple holes?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

WF / West is not the greatest of courses for spectactors as a number of the greens are set on rock croppings and it can be difficult to see all the action.

One recommendation -- try the green site at #16 -- you also get close proximity to the tee shot at #17 and the green at #12 plus the tee shot at #13 is relatively close by.

[Steve_Lemmon]

Matt:  thanks for the tips.  I am anxious to see the course. It is always a little strange viewing golf from the galleries, especially on courses you haven't played.  Since I enjoy watching train wrecks, any special places I can watch a lot of guys try to hit it out of deep rough or attempt a really hard recovery shot from a tight lie around a green?  I spent an entertaining few hours off the left side of no 16 fairway at Hazeltine in 1991, and frankly, I think it is often more entertaining watching pros cope with a really hard recovery shot than hitting from the middle of the fairway.  

[JESII]

That's a cool question Steve.

From my three times around the course I would say #10 will be interesting. It is extremely difficult to recover to, but maybe these guys will hit the green most of the time. #4 right rough will get a ton of balls for sure. #6 will be interesting if a high percentage of the guys try to reach the green (or even its surrounds) from the tee. I think I'd like to see how they play the 15th. Not just from a recovery perspective, but overall strategy (lay back, or not) and effectiveness.

Have fun, I'f you're looking for carnage, you can count on a good bit.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Don't know if you have clubhouse access -- but seeing the place from inside is worth your time.

The only other location worth taking in is just behind the 1st green -- the 2nd tee is near by -- ditto the 8th green and 9th tee box.

You can be sure there will be a few train wrecks on each of these holes.

Arguably, the 1st at WF / West is among the strongest starting holes and much of that stems from a green complex you need to personally see. It is truly mindboggling.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

While the doglegs are not sharp, and much of the tree defenses have ended up in fireplaces throughout Wetchester (SIC), many of the bunkers in front of the greens are defenses against sneaking the drive up the inside elbow of the gentle bend.

Don't miss the fairway to the inside as par will now be your birdie.

+4 wins it.

JWK

[Phil Benedict]

Take a look at the sports page in the NY Times today.  There is an article about Mickelson where he discusses the need to shape your drives on the 10 (there's that # again) doglegs at Winged Foot.  Says he will use two drivers if it plays wet and long but only one if its firm and fast.  I am not sure which one but probably the one that promotes the fade.

[Jim Nugent]

Do you have to work your tee shots more at Winged Foot than at ANGC?

[Steve_Lemmon]

Somewhere in my distant memory I seem to recall hearing that it was not all that easy to hold a tee shot on the fairways at Winged Foot, due to crowning, rocky sub soil, or something like that (perhaps the revered f&f set up).  Any truth to that?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

At WF / West you need to "slide" your tee shots rather than take them one way or ther other in a much more abrupt manner.

You also have smaller targets to reach at WF / West than Augusta and the wherewithal to recover at WF / West is completely dependent on whether you have given yourself sufficient room and not short-sided yourself.

[JSlonis]

Do you have to work your tee shots more at Winged Foot than at ANGC?

I have played several rounds at Winged Foot, and have been to Augusta National for the Masters twice, but have never played Augusta.  Based on what I have seen, I would say there is a greater need to shape your tee shots at Winged Foot vs. Augusta.  The effective area to drive your ball is much smaller at Winged Foot.  Even though the curvature to most of the dogleg holes at Winged Foot are quite subtle, the fairways are pretty narrow, and the effective landing area is quite small.

With the rough being as tough as reported, those fairways are going to look like "ribbons" amongst that heavy rough.  I can't wait to see what the big boys will do at Winged Foot.  Hopefully, they'll get some good weather, so the golf course can be setup and play as intended.